D&D General Why grognards still matter

[Warpiglet-7]

See I just roll with it and ignore the stuff I don't like. IF I have to go to a new edition because of players I just make table rules and magic items to fix what I don't like. Life's too short to fight about it. I just want to play or run a game.

Sure. I don’t fight either. If I don’t like it I won’t buy it. My pals and I are usually of a like mind and use the same stuff so it’s never an issue.

If I went to a con or game store I would just conform and play what they are playing or not play.

 

[Mistwell]

yeah, you’re insisting some segment of the market matters more for some essential reason.

1) I didn't read anything in his post that was "insisting"
2) I didn't read anything in his post that ranked a segment as mattering more, just that it mattered.

 

[Mercurius]

yeah, you’re insisting some segment of the market matters more for some essential reason. Nope. What I said, you don’t matter. Grognards that buy every book don’t matter, they buy every book. Grognards that don’t buy any books anymore, don’t matter, they don’t buy books. I suppose those disposable income grognards you talk about matter for their purchases of wizkid and other licensed products. But ultimately, You’re just an old man saying that old men matter and, sorryy, in the TTRPG space, ya don’t. You’re 50 years old and spending a lot of time debating books targeted at kids in their late teens. Think about it. What old forks like us want doesn’t matter. They’re making a product for our kids. You can like if you like, but seriously, get over the idea that grognards matter to anyone making new stuff these days. Stop wanting things to be about you, appreciate all the new stuff being made for othe next gen.

Huh? I missed this one until I saw Mistwell's reply. Those points apply - read them, then re-read what I actually wrote, ignoring your baseless assumptions.

Not only is your post bordering on hateful ("you're just an old man...") but it is complete and utter hogwash. You're reading stuff into what I wrote and using me as a surrogate for your idea of some kind of stereotypical old man yelling at the clouds.

 

[Hex08]

The massive error here is assuming people of the same generation share the same opinions and tastes.

They don't matter because they are not a unified group.

But that is part of the point of grouping by generation. It's not just grouping by the range of years someone was born into but also looking at that groups general behaviors and characteristics. It's not an attempt to say all people of a certain generation are the same, it's just a generalization that allows us to look at certain cohorts of people more easily. We do it with many groupings; political, religious, professional, economic standing and many others. It's not intended to say any group is monolithic. Humans love to categorize things and generation is one of the ways we do it but those professionals who define them are aware of the weaknesses involved.

 

[Mercurius]

1) I didn't read anything in his post that was "insisting"
2) I didn't read anything in his post that ranked a segment as mattering more, just that it mattered.

It is weird how me saying "we're still at the table" is translated as me "insisting" that grognards matter more than younger players. In actuality, if anything what I'm saying is that younger players are central, but older players aren't dead and buried and still have a not-insignificant market share. Craziness, I tell you!

 

[SkidAce]

Part 1: What is a Grognard?
First, a new definition of grognard: It starts with anyone older than the target audience age of D&D. Now of course that is rather nebulous, but I would think the target audience is the big part of the bell-curve of current D&D players, which is probably something like age 15-25 right now (could be wrong, but that's my guess...I'm guessing someone comes in here and says, "I disagree, it is actually probably more like 14-24"). Furthermore, under my definition, a grognard must have cut their teeth on an older edition of D&D, meaning 4E or older (2014 doesn't count).

Now I would put for that grognardism is a spectrum. We could posit the above definition equating with "quasi-grognards" or perhaps "apprentice tier" grognards, while journeyman grognards are two editions removed, and so forth. Something like this:

Novices (non-grognards): Started playing during the 5E era, 2014 or later. Generally under age 25 - younger Zennials and Alpha.​

Apprentice grognards (aka "quasi-grognards"): Started playing during 4E, age 25-35ish, or older Zennials.​

Journeyman grognards: Started playing during 3.x, probably age 35-45ish. Younger millenials.​

Expert grognards: Started playing AD&D 2nd or BECMI, 1990s. Age 40-50ish. Millenials, mostly.​

Master grognards: Started playing AD&D 1st edition, or B/X D&D. Age 50-60ish. Gen-X or older.​

Grandmaster grognards: Playing with Gygax in the 70s, OD&D, baby. Age 60+. Boomers or older. Of course a true grognard had to have played wargames before D&D even started, but we'll waive this criteria for grandmastery.​

Do I have permission as you hath decreed to title myself Grandmaster Grognard?

 

[SkidAce]

You're not a grognard unless you complain about how oversensitive and fragile younger players are while also getting all offended and bent out of shape over little things without seeing the cognitive dissonance


*for the record, I'm a master grognard by your list.

complain and grumble...sure...insult newer players....never.

Re: my sig.

 

[SkidAce]

There are grognards around here? I could go for a game of Stalingrad!

Would you settle for.....

 

[SkidAce]

...What I would call a 'Grognard' wouldn't play any current D&D, wouldn't buy any of the new D&D products, they would continue to play their old collection. So zero benefit to WotC, even introducing new players to D&D in general would probably do more damage then good. Often their vitriol at anything current D&D or WotC would just alienate any new player to 5e/WotC. OR they would just play the best game ever made: "Heroquest is the best game ever made!", and not that new fangled stuff!

I disagree with your definition. Grognard is not an insult.

Re: my sig.

 

[Mercurius]

Do I have permission as you hath decreed to title myself Grandmaster Grognard?

Certainly, sir. And of course (as I tired to make clear), the categorizations are just a bit of fun and rather silly.

I mean, I think Luke Gygax is chronologically Master level, but gets honorary Grandmastery. I suppose anyone who was playing D&D before the AD&D books game out probably gets membership.

But more seriously, I think there is a generational difference between those who were cognizant while early D&D was developing and those, like myself, who caught the wave of the early 80s boom when there was already an established tradition of D&D.

Or to put it another way, if you had this you're definitely a Grandmaster:

If you had this, you're on the cusp but probably still a Grandmaster:

If this is Tomb of Horrors to you, then you're a Master:

If it is this, then you're an Expert:

If it is this, you're an Apprentice or Novice: