D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[ezo]

Yes it does. Statistics are not spells.

Yep, they are. If they are part of a statblock, they are included. If I make a simulacrum of archmage, it has spellcasting. If I make a simulacrum of a PC with spellcasting (which includes prepared spells ) it has those.

Same hit points same level, same height, same weight etc. spells memorized are not statistics. this is obviously open to interpretation but It's the way I'd run it.

And of course you are free to do so.

Also it can't gain levels, it cant take short or long rests so no more memorization of spells. What it does have it has once...............

Correct. Once is all I need.

So best case you get a half hitpoint mage that has whatever spells the mage has memorized. nothing that is really scary at level 20 for a well equipped party.

How about 100 of them? 10000 of them? Because that is what this loop can do.

Also as you cast your wish to create the simalcrum you have used your wish so unless we are talking a mage over 20th level it's not even an issue because as the simalcrum is created you don't have wish memorized any more.

Umm... I am not casting wish, the simulacrums are.

Never mind the goddess of creation or magic or head of the pantheon, looking over your shoulder as you try to abuse magic that way will end the mage far quicker than anything his enemies will do.

Your world, do what you want... but none of that is RAW or addresses an abuse that is RAW-- which is sort of the point.

Nothing DM can do to stop the use of that spell.

Luckily, of course there is. Which is why any sane DM (IMO) would not allow this RAW abuse.

Mage won't live long if the DM is doing his or her job correctly.

Well, it isn't the job of the DM to kill off a PC (although some DMs do think that way... I don't, personally).

Quoted. 2024 version.

"You create a simulacrum of one Beast or Humanoid that is within 10 feet of you for the entire casting of the spell. You finish the casting by touching both the creature and a pile of ice or snow that is the same size as that creature, and the pile turns into the simulacrum, which is a creature. It uses the game statistics of the original creature at the time of casting, except it is a Construct, its Hit Point maximum is half as much, and it can’t cast this spell.

Great, the simulacrums are never casting this spell. They are casting wish, which "duplicates" a spell of 8th level or lower, but doesn't actually cast that spell.

The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 Hit Points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts away. If you cast this spell again, any simulacrum you created with this spell is instantly destroyed.

Also great! I (the Wizard) have only cast it once.

I mean, I know there are hundreds of posts in this thread, but I'm basically just repeating points I've made before and I find it annoying, to be frank. If you want to take the time and read my responses upthread, you'll basically know how I am going to respond to future remarks about this sort of stuff. In short:

1. 2024 changed nothing about the RAW abuse chain for (practically) infinite simulacrums of my PC wizard once I hit 17th level.
2. The RAW abuse chain is:
a) I cast simulacrum to make a SIM of myself. Like myself, it has wish prepared.
b) The SIM immediately casts its wish to make a SIM of myself (not itself).
c) SIM2 now repeats, casing its wish to make SIM of myself.
d) Repeat each new SIM of myself using its wish to make another SIM of myself until I get tired of it.

At 600 SIMs per hour, that is thousands in a day, tens of thousands in a week, and hundreds of thousands in a month.

Nothing in the new version prevents it because:
1. the SIMs are not casting simulacrum (they can't), but are casting wish.
2. I have only cast the spell once.

So... hopefully that clears that up. You can of course rule or run a game however you want, but this is the RAW way the spells work. WotC could have prevented all of this in a few different ways, but big surprise... they didn't. Hopefully they will address this in the errata.

 

[nevin]

Also great! I (the Wizard) have only cast it once.

I mean, I know there are hundreds of posts in this thread, but I'm basically just repeating points I've made before and I find it annoying, to be frank. If you want to take the time and read my responses upthread, you'll basically know how I am going to respond to future remarks about this sort of stuff. In short:

1. 2024 changed nothing about the RAW abuse chain for (practically) infinite simulacrums of my PC wizard once I hit 17th level.
2. The RAW abuse chain is:
a) I cast simulacrum to make a SIM of myself. Like myself, it has wish prepared.
b) The SIM immediately casts its wish to make a SIM of myself (not itself).
c) SIM2 now repeats, casing its wish to make SIM of myself.
d) Repeat each new SIM of myself using its wish to make another SIM of myself until I get tired of it.

At 600 SIMs per hour, that is thousands in a day, tens of thousands in a week, and hundreds of thousands in a month.

Nothing in the new version prevents it because:
1. the SIMs are not casting simulacrum (they can't), but are casting wish.
2. I have only cast the spell once.

So... hopefully that clears that up. You can of course rule or run a game however you want, but this is the RAW way the spells work. WotC could have prevented all of this in a few different ways, but big surprise... they didn't. Hopefully they will address this in the errata.

except if you cast wish you don't have it prepared unless you are past level 20.........

 

[nevin]

So for the loop to work you have to be over level 20 which by 5e is the max level. So again at 20th level you have to cast your wish spell which then you don't have memorized so your simalcrum doesn't have it memorized. Assuming we are going by the rule you stated that the silmacrum is exactly as you are with half hitpoints and that includes spells you have memorized.

 

[ezo]

except if you cast wish you don't have it prepared unless you are past level 20.........

Ok. I will try this ONE LAST TIME... I am NOT casting wish. The SIMS are.

I put it right here in step a)

a) I cast simulacrum to make a SIM of myself. Like myself, it has wish prepared.

The first time I will actually cast simulacrum. Heck, I can then even get in a Long rest to get that slot back. After that, my SIM (and every SIM made thereafer) will cast wish to make duplicates of me.

I never cast wish, myself.

So for the loop to work you have to be over level 20 which by 5e is the max level.

No, I don't. In fact, I dont' even have to be 20th. I only need to be 17th level or higher.

 

[nevin]

But again 3 pit fiends sharing wishes dead wizard. God of magic cuts you off, Turns you into a Djinn and you can cast unlimited wishes for other people etc. the abuse only works if the DM is into being abused. It's a non issue at that level.

 

[Zardnaar]

AEDU itself didn't create any issues. You could easily fit an AEDU class into 5e. The warlock nearly is one. Cantrips / pact magic / Mystic Arcanum / invocations.

The issue was that every class having the exact same AEDU.
Everything ability being in colored boxes instead of more natural text seems to have turned a lot of people off a lot too.
And the massively inflated numbers. +30 to hit (though that seems popular in Pathfinder 2e).


But I wasn't suggesting an AEDU casters. Just scaling some slots instead of compounding them.

AEDU is fine in 5E. Add though don't subtract.
Waocks fairly close.

 

[nevin]

noted on who casts the similcrum. but doesn't change anything fundamental about how it's only an issue at that level if the DM lets you do whatever you want without consequences. If it's a game where the gods let you cast unlimited wishes without consequence then have at it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok. I will try this ONE LAST TIME... I am NOT casting wish. The SIMS are.

I put it right here in step a)


The first time I will actually cast simulacrum. Heck, I can then even get in a Long rest to get that slot back. After that, my SIM (and every SIM made thereafer) will cast wish to make duplicates of me.

I never cast wish, myself.


No, I don't. In fact, I dont' even have to be 20th. I only need to be 17th level or higher.

You can do that but it's going to cost gold.

Wish abuse is using it to create the simulacrum for free.

 

[ezo]

But again 3 pit fiends sharing wishes dead wizard. God of magic cuts you off, Turns you into a Djinn and you can cast unlimited wishes for other people etc. the abuse only works if the DM is into being abused. It's a non issue at that level.

Wow either you're trolling or just don't get it: THIS IS RAW discussion (at least on my side).

It is a broken feature of the game that the devs could have fixed and failed to do so. Of course the DM shouldn't allow it. Again, if you read the thread you would know this happened in a game I ran a few years back and I told the player flat-out "No, not allowing it," and fixed the spells myself so it wasn't an issue.

But hey, be a "killer" DM and just wipe out the PC and annoy the player instead of addressing it like an adult and fixing the abuse before it comes up. You do you.

 

[ezo]

You can do that but it's going to cost gold.

At 17th level general 1500 gp isn't a big issue IME. YMMV, of couse.

Wish abuse is using it to create the simulacrum for free.

Sure, and you could cast wish the first time, rest to get your slot back, and then do the loop.

Either way works. My point was more the first way (with the wizard casting simulacrum) he can start the "production loop" immediately if he wants to.