GM fiat - an illustration

[pemerton]

I mean, we decide to break into a warehouse in Fong Town. Who does it belong to? What's in there? Can they afford magical protection? Do they have influence with the town government to get the PCs in trouble? I believe you can sometimes construct this amount of detail in a very restricted sense, but that means you better have the PCs on a short leash so they don't go outside that!

I ran this kind of campaign, it definitely wasn't sustainable at the pace we moved at! In fact it devolved down into essentially narrativist play after a few months. Not that I'd really heard about those techniques (it was the '90s) but focusing on the plot as being the thing that was the game part of play got pretty interesting. Not that it was easy to do with 2e, but kind of possible.

For me, erase "2e" and substitute "Rolemaster" - and then it's "ditto"!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure. I think people very often have setting logic at or close to top of mind.

But setting logic won't tell us whether or not there is a Nightblade available for hire to this person on this occasion; nor whether or not that Nightblade is going to detect the PCs' Waiting Illusion, and thus circumvent it.

There are tables to roll on to answer questions like that. Tables that can (and IMO should) take setting logic into account.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There are tables to roll on to answer questions like that. Tables that can (and IMO should) take setting logic into account.

also the gm probably has an idea of the likelihood here. This is something I would usually makes tables for or roll a percentage chance of based on likelihood. I also assign organizations, and villains info network dice pools so I might roll that or assign a dice pool based on feel and intuition. Also depending on specifics the GM may have a more concrete sense of the availability of such things. Generally though when NPCs are plotting I try to make them jump through hoops I would ask the pcs to jump through out of fairness

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also I don’t see why it is a problem if the GM is making something up in the moment, if players are going in directions no one expected. How the GM invents in that space will vary from GM to GM. Who cares?

 

[hawkeyefan]

I do think he's more extreme that I am for sure, but not the the extent that it appears.

Wow, okay.

That's just a very extreme way to say that he doesn't have a problem house ruling parts of the game that get in the way of how he likes to play the game, just like most of us do and have done since 1e.

No, it's clearly a statement that he knows better than anyone else and will not even consider what others have to say.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Also I don’t see why it is a problem if the GM is making something up in the moment, if players are going in directions no one expected. How the GM invents in that space will vary from GM to GM. Who cares?

It depends.

Of course a GM will need to make up new information during play. That's a requirement in most games, even heavily prepped adventure path style games. It's more about what needs to be made up, how much needs to be made up, what may be left to the dice or other processes, and how that impacts play.

The Alarm spell example shows how so many points of GM fiat in the process can essentially bypass the spell. It's illustrative of a potential problem in the wider design of the game and how it relates to player agency.

If player agency isn't a concern, then sure... who cares? But if it is, it's something to be aware of.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it's clearly a statement that he knows better than anyone else and will not even consider what others have to say.

You aren't listening. What he says he does and what he does are not always the same. It took me a while to learn that, and it makes it really hard to figure out how he really does things.

You don't have to go through the effort to figure out what he really means, but you also should not be assuming the worst now that you know.

 

[Emerikol]

Right. This is largely the point. The more GM fiat, the less player agency.

Some people actually want their players to have agency.

I don't think GM fiat reduces player agency if the GM is fair.

I don't know how unique it is to watch a GM, unconstrained by any rules and with unlimited fictional resources, shoot down player ideas.

Hopefully, it becomes increasingly so. But it's also not brilliant. It's about the lowest form of GMing I can imagine.

If by saying "Idea #324 is not possible given the current state of affairs in the setting" I don't see that as limiting the players very much as the whole point is to adventure in a particular setting.

A GM who does whatever he wants because he thinks he knows better than the designers, other GMs, and all his players. I don't think things need to get even remotely close to this extreme for this to be a consideration in how a game functions.

I do believe in the absolute adherence to rule 0. I also believe a DM should be upfront, fair, and striving for the fun of the game. In effect, he should use his power in a benevolent way and many do. Some don't. Those are bad DMs.

 

[Emerikol]

I mean, we decide to break into a warehouse in Fong Town. Who does it belong to? What's in there? Can they afford magical protection? Do they have influence with the town government to get the PCs in trouble? I believe you can sometimes construct this amount of detail in a very restricted sense, but that means you better have the PCs on a short leash so they don't go outside that!

I ran this kind of campaign, it definitely wasn't sustainable at the pace we moved at!

I find this kind of interesting and a good explanation for why you play as you do. I never had any trouble running the sort of game you describe and I knew the answers. I do a lot of upfront work. One constraint of course is the sandbox but it's not tiny.

 

[Theory of Games]

That's a major reason why my recent designs are built around elaborate and fictionless resolution minigames where you can and should be playing to win.

Because playing to win against a resisting opponent is fun, who could've thought.

Fortunately, ttrpgs aren't about winning or losing. They're about having fun with a group of friends