GM fiat - an illustration

[Maxperson]

Why the hostility? You have advocated for Rule Zero often and proudly.

You: This game I'm talking about doesn't always roll in social situations. The GM can say it works or fails.
Me: D&D is like that too.
You: I can't believe you are saying that D&D and this game are identical!
Me: I never said that. I said the social resolution you mentioned is the same.
You: So you're talking about Rule 0?
Me:

If you want me to respond with more than a roll of the eyes, respond to what I'm saying and stop making things up.

No. in the example I was responding to from @thefutilist , the outcome was uncertain and the GM simply decided the outcome.

That was how the GM decided in that example. So you insisting otherwise is ignoring a key element of that exchange.

Now, in your awesome example… what happened? Were dice used or not?

It doesn't matter. My point is my own. I'm not bound to what someone else is talking about.

The scenario you’ve described with the devil and the character offering his soul… if the devil’s decision is determined by GM fiat or by dice roll… how does fiat offer more opportunity for creativity?

How does the DM being able to create just about anything he can imagine have more opportunity to create than a die roll with a set resolution?

 

[pemerton]

Do you have examples of RPGs with language inviting the DM to engage in "story time" and then giving direction on how to engage in it via fiat?

These extracts from The Traveller Book (1982), pp 1, 12-13, 15, 98, 123, state the approach:

The referee presents the situation while the players are themselves the characters in this unfolding novel of the moment. Working together as a team, the players solve the riddles set out before them and play out the situation. . . .

A scenario is like a science fiction novel; the players are given some specific goal and the adventure occurs as they try to attain it. . . . Create a scenario as you would a story, with something to be achieved and difficulties strewn in the path of that goal. Scenarios can be as complex as the referee feels necessary, ranging from the simplest plot devices to complex adventure worthy of a great adventure writer. . . .

The rolling of dice is a convenient way to represent unknown variables or to assist the referee in making decisions. Feel free to modify the results if you do not like the way they turned out. Change a death result to a severely wounded result if you feel a character has behaved heroically and deserves a second chance . . .

Through non-player characters you can give the players rumors, hints, and threats, help them out of tight spots, lure them into tight spots, get them back on the track, lure them away from their objective, and generally help or hind the characters as much as is necessary. . . .

As the adventure progresses, the referee will often have the urge to "help out" the players by providing them with information that they otherwise would not, or could not logically know. This is poor form . . . The function of a referee is to guide, not control. . . . Direct intervention of the referee in a situation is also poor form. . . . The hand of a good referee, like that of a good puppeteer, should be invisible. . . .

Encounters with non-player characters serve as the referee's vehicle for direction and input during adventures.

Settings are places or locations for adventures. Four basic settings for adventures are the ship, the location, the world, and the choreographed novel. . . . The choreographed novel involves a setting already thought out by the referee and presented to the players; it may be any of the above settings, but contains predetermined elements. As such, the referee has already developed characters and settings which bear on the group's activities, and they are guided gently to the proper locations. Properly done, the players never know that the referee has manipulated them to a fore-ordained goal.​

Here's an illustration of the approach (just one of many that could be chosen), from the 3E module Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, p 98:

If attacked, the bone naga [Dawnat Sanp] defends himself . . . If after a single round of combat the characters cease their attack, Sanp might accept an apology . . . Either way, go to the E5: Chased Out of the City encounter description below. . . .

E5: Chased Out of the City Once the PCs have the information they need from the ambassador, they will be chased out of the city as spies. . . use the foolowing sequence of increasingly urgent prompts to flee the city. A large part of getting characters to flee is the DM's approach; make it clear to them that staying is suicide.​

 

[Maxperson]

These extracts from The Traveller Book (1982), pp 1, 12-13, 15, 98, 123, state the approach:

The referee presents the situation while the players are themselves the characters in this unfolding novel of the moment. Working together as a team, the players solve the riddles set out before them and play out the situation. . . .​

​

A scenario is like a science fiction novel; the players are given some specific goal and the adventure occurs as they try to attain it. . . . Create a scenario as you would a story, with something to be achieved and difficulties strewn in the path of that goal. Scenarios can be as complex as the referee feels necessary, ranging from the simplest plot devices to complex adventure worthy of a great adventure writer. . . .​

​

The rolling of dice is a convenient way to represent unknown variables or to assist the referee in making decisions. Feel free to modify the results if you do not like the way they turned out. Change a death result to a severely wounded result if you feel a character has behaved heroically and deserves a second chance . . .​

​

Through non-player characters you can give the players rumors, hints, and threats, help them out of tight spots, lure them into tight spots, get them back on the track, lure them away from their objective, and generally help or hind the characters as much as is necessary. . . .​

​

As the adventure progresses, the referee will often have the urge to "help out" the players by providing them with information that they otherwise would not, or could not logically know. This is poor form . . . The function of a referee is to guide, not control. . . . Direct intervention of the referee in a situation is also poor form. . . . The hand of a good referee, like that of a good puppeteer, should be invisible. . . .​

​

Encounters with non-player characters serve as the referee's vehicle for direction and input during adventures.​

​

Settings are places or locations for adventures. Four basic settings for adventures are the ship, the location, the world, and the choreographed novel. . . . The choreographed novel involves a setting already thought out by the referee and presented to the players; it may be any of the above settings, but contains predetermined elements. As such, the referee has already developed characters and settings which bear on the group's activities, and they are guided gently to the proper locations. Properly done, the players never know that the referee has manipulated them to a fore-ordained goal.​

Here's an illustration of the approach (just one of many that could be chosen), from the 3E module Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, p 98:

If attacked, the bone naga [Dawnat Sanp] defends himself . . . If after a single round of combat the characters cease their attack, Sanp might accept an apology . . . Either way, go to the E5: Chased Out of the City encounter description below. . . .​

​

E5: Chased Out of the City Once the PCs have the information they need from the ambassador, they will be chased out of the city as spies. . . use the foolowing sequence of increasingly urgent prompts to flee the city. A large part of getting characters to flee is the DM's approach; make it clear to them that staying is suicide.​

Fair enough. That's more than 40 years old, though. Is there anything from this millennium? RPG creation has changed quite a bit from the ancient times when they first crawled out of the primordial game creator.

 

[pemerton]

Fair enough. That's more than 40 years old, though. Is there anything from this millennium? RPG creation has changed quite a bit from the ancient times when they first crawled out of the primordial game creator.

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is from 2007. I don't own any 5e adventure paths, but I would expect some of them to have pretty similar stuff.

 

[Maxperson]

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is from 2007. I don't own any 5e adventure paths, but I would expect some of them to have pretty similar stuff.

I don't know that one. What about it tells the DM to run a DM fiat story and not take the players responses and input into consideration?

 

[hawkeyefan]

You: This game I'm talking about doesn't always roll in social situations. The GM can say it works or fails.
Me: D&D is like that too.
You: I can't believe you are saying that D&D and this game are identical!
Me: I never said that. I said the social resolution you mentioned is the same.
You: So you're talking about Rule 0?
Me:

If you want me to respond with more than a roll of the eyes, respond to what I'm saying and stop making things up.

You misinterpreted my point in the first “You” above. This is because you’re ignoring the context of the discussion as it was, between @thefutilist and me.

So again… in the example the DM decided by fiat how the assassin’s former lover reacted to the assassin’s request to take him back. So my comments were about a situation where the DM in a D&D game had a situation that was uncertain and decided the outcome by fiat.

In Apocalypse World, that wouldn’t be how it’s handled. If the outcome is certain, then the GM would just say so. Since it’s not, they would go to the dice.

Now… I know that’s similar to how the process is described in the D&D rulebooks… but in the specific example my comments were based upon… that DM handled it differently.

So when you came into the conversation, I assumed you had been following and understood the context of my comments. Because this was a case where the DM decided to handle it differently than the general process described in the books, I figured you were defending that decision as an instance of Rule Zero. Hence my asking you about that.

It doesn't matter. My point is my own. I'm not bound to what someone else is talking about.

You can try and make any point you like, Max. But if you jump into a conversation that’s ongoing between two other participants, don’t be surprised when they assume you’ve been following that conversation and understand the context.

How does the DM being able to create just about anything he can imagine have more opportunity to create than a die roll with a set resolution?

No.

The assassin has asked his lover to forgive him. He pleads his case to her. She can choose to forgive him or not.

Resolution Method 1- the DM decides she does not forgive him. The DM considers all the factors that have been established in play, the history between the PC and NPC, the NPC’s current outlook, and any other relevant factors. He then renders his decision.

Resolution Method 2- dice are used to determine how the NPC reacts.
Result 2A- she does not forgive him. The GM considers the same factors as above and explains the NPC’s decision.
Result 2B- she does forgive him. The GM considers all the relevant factors and then explains why the NPC forgives the assassin.

My question to @thefutilist was how Resolution Method 1 resulted in an act of creativity by the GM that Resolution Method 2 somehow lacked. Because from what I can see, they both involve the same amount of creativity. The only difference is the means of the decision made.

So… I hope now that I’ve elaborated to this extent that you’re able to understand the original discussion and can approach the topic with that in mind.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is from 2007. I don't own any 5e adventure paths, but I would expect some of them to have pretty similar stuff.

The 5e adventures mostly have this kind of stuff in them, with some exceptions, but they don’t tend to use as direct language about it as I recall seeing in the 2e days, and some 3.x products. But most are still very linear, with a predetermined path with a few opportunities for choice that will have some kind of impact.

They don’t, in the ones I’ve seen and that I recall, come right out and say things like “if this NPC is killed, have his lieutenant replace him for the remainder of play so that X will still come about later” and the like.

 

[bloodtide]

Perhaps in your game. When I run RPGs, even including one as GM led as D&D 5e, I don’t alter or reinterpret rules on a whim.

Yes, you play the game very differently.

I would say I actively alter the game reality in any way I feel like it on a whim to make the game more fun for all. I would guess you say you don't do that?

I alter, change or ignore rules..even whole rulebooks...on a whim, again to make the game more fun for all. I would guess you say you don't do this?

I don't care what the players or anyone else thinks about anything ever, as I on a whim make the game more fun for all. I would guess say you don't do this?

What purpose do dice serve in your game?

Randomness. If I at any time on a whim feel like it, I will let the dice decide something and maybe or maybe not go by it. But I firmly am the sole power in the game and the dice are only rolled and followed if I so wish it.

These extracts from The Traveller Book (1982), pp 1, 12-13, 15, 98, 123, state the approach:

So much here is wrong and I disagree with so much. But it is typical of someone, a non gamer type, just writing about "that RPG game thing they heard about".

The referee presents the situation while the players are themselves the characters in this unfolding novel of the moment. Working together as a team, the players solve the riddles set out before them and play out the situation. . . .​

So we start with: The DM is writing a Novel. Hahahaha. And game play is specifically solving riddles. Wow....

A scenario is like a science fiction novel; the players are given some specific goal and the adventure occurs as they try to attain it. . . . Create a scenario as you would a story, with something to be achieved and difficulties strewn in the path of that goal. Scenarios can be as complex as the referee feels necessary, ranging from the simplest plot devices to complex adventure worthy of a great adventure writer. . . .​

While I'm all fine for the 'Novel DM', this is a big problem as it is very, very limiting. By saying here the game "must be like a novel" (or TV show or movie) with a "specific goal" is a huge part of the problem. This gives you tons of gamers that think RPGs can only be "novel/tv shows/movies". Like say in a robot voice: "beep, in this game we will steal the Death Star plans. beep" and nothing else is even considered.

The rolling of dice is a convenient way to represent unknown variables or to assist the referee in making decisions. Feel free to modify the results if you do not like the way they turned out. Change a death result to a severely wounded result if you feel a character has behaved heroically and deserves a second chance . . .​

Hummm...so the dice just assist the DM and the DM should ignore the dice on a whim......nice.

​

Through non-player characters you can give the players rumors, hints, and threats, help them out of tight spots, lure them into tight spots, get them back on the track, lure them away from their objective, and generally help or hind the characters as much as is necessary. . . .​

So the DM can do whatever they want on a whim.....nice.

​

As the adventure progresses, the referee will often have the urge to "help out" the players by providing them with information that they otherwise would not, or could not logically know. This is poor form . . . The function of a referee is to guide, not control. . . . Direct intervention of the referee in a situation is also poor form. . . . The hand of a good referee, like that of a good puppeteer, should be invisible. . . .​

Humm, so don't be a fan of the players/character? Don't be a DM best buddy? Don't just give the players Easy Buttons to press? Wow.... And the touch of a good DM is invisible!

Settings are places or locations for adventures. Four basic settings for adventures are the ship, the location, the world, and the choreographed novel. . . . The choreographed novel involves a setting already thought out by the referee and presented to the players; it may be any of the above settings, but contains predetermined elements. As such, the referee has already developed characters and settings which bear on the group's activities, and they are guided gently to the proper locations. Properly done, the players never know that the referee has manipulated them to a fore-ordained goal.​

Woah...."choreographed novel" sure sounds like a Railroad! And then they say it should be an Invisible Railroad too!

If attacked, the bone naga [Dawnat Sanp] defends himself . . . If after a single round of combat the characters cease their attack, Sanp might accept an apology . . . Either way, go to the E5: Chased Out of the City encounter description below. . . .​

​

E5: Chased Out of the City Once the PCs have the information they need from the ambassador, they will be chased out of the city as spies. . . use the foolowing sequence of increasingly urgent prompts to flee the city. A large part of getting characters to flee is the DM's approach; make it clear to them that staying is suicide.​

Well, this is just poorly written scribble. It is typical of a lot of books, that after all just written by "someone" for a paycheck.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yes, you play the game very differently.

I would say I actively alter the game reality in any way I feel like it on a whim to make the game more fun for all. I would guess you say you don't do that?

I alter, change or ignore rules..even whole rulebooks...on a whim, again to make the game more fun for all. I would guess you say you don't do this?

I don't care what the players or anyone else thinks about anything ever, as I on a whim make the game more fun for all. I would guess say you don't do this?

If you don’t care what the players think, then how are you even able to know what is more fun for them? It doesn’t make any sense.

As for changing things to be more fun… I don’t really know what you mean. Of course fun is a goal. But do I alter dice rolls? Do I change rules in the middle of play, or similar? No, I definitely don’t.

Do you know why? Because when that happens to me as a player, it actually makes the game less fun.

So if someone does that and claims to be doing so to make the game more fun for me, they’re full of it… probably because they don’t actually care what I or anyone else thinks and instead only do what they enjoy! Because… wait for it… they think they know better than everyone else!

Randomness. If I at any time on a whim feel like it, I will let the dice decide something and maybe or maybe not go by it. But I firmly am the sole power in the game and the dice are only rolled and followed if I so wish it.

So you will at times roll the dice and then ignore the results?

So would you say it’d be more accurate to day that the dice are about “suggesting randomness”?

 

[pemerton]

The 5e adventures mostly have this kind of stuff in them, with some exceptions, but they don’t tend to use as direct language about it as I recall seeing in the 2e days, and some 3.x products. But most are still very linear, with a predetermined path with a few opportunities for choice that will have some kind of impact.

They don’t, in the ones I’ve seen and that I recall, come right out and say things like “if this NPC is killed, have his lieutenant replace him for the remainder of play so that X will still come about later” and the like.

Re that last thing: not only does the Bastion of Broken Souls do this (it's an early-ish 3E D&D module), but the back-up villains are called "The Second String"!

I don't know that one. What about it tells the DM to run a DM fiat story and not take the players responses and input into consideration?

I quoted one example in my post upthread.