D&D 5E 2024 Monster Manual has better lore than 2014 Monster Manual

[abirdcall]

For me the 2024 MM does a much better job of communicating the lore of the monsters with their art entries than the 2014 MM.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you’d like a Monster Manual with 100 monsters in it?

The 2e Monstrous Manual had more than 100 monsters.

 

[dave2008]

Money is basically what conflicts with design. Focus testing, determination that the number of monster statblocks increases sales, hoping to sell lore seperately, page count, people love to roll dice so give them tables instead of commas, CEOs saying kids hate words these days, etc.

Vs. Designers producing exactly the product they sincerely think will result in the best outcomes for the purchasers.

Thank you for the clarification. That is basically how I see it as well. But I don't think it is one or the other, it is a give and take. I imagine the designers are sincerely designing the best product that can within a given budget, like the vast majority of all products. Rarely is someone told: design whatever you want we will find the money! And, honestly, that doesn't always produce the best results either. I can easily give examples in my field (architecture) if you would like.

So is the 2024 MM 100% want the designers want, probably not. However, it could be sincerely the best result outcome they think for purchasers given any number of constraints.

 

[TheSword]

The 2e Monstrous Manual had more than 100 monsters.

The 2e MM is a bleak textbook. Good for its time. Absolutely dated now.

2 pages on Kuo-toa - parts of which are so specific as to be irrelevant to most adventures. With an extremely uninspiring picture.

 

[Corinnguard]

They’ve stripped it out of the MM to keep that book setting neutral. Setting specific lore will be in the individual setting books.

You can make an RPG monster book setting neutral by coming up with some general lore for each monster that is a couple paragraphs long. Paizo was able to do for its' 6 Bestiaries in Pathfinder 1st edition (Pathfinder 2nd's Bestiaries otoh are setting specific). Ditto for Level Up's 2 Monstrous Menageries.

So you’d like a Monster Manual with 100 monsters in it?

Not really. What I would really like to see is more than one official Monster Manual for 5e. There are a lot of monsters that need to be updated.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The 2e MM is a bleak textbook. Good for its time. Absolutely dated now.

2 pages on Kuo-toa - parts of which are so specific as to be irrelevant to most adventures. With an extremely uninspiring picture.

Again, dated is relative. For my money official D&D has never done better, and only a couple 3pp monster books rival it in my appreciation (my favorites are A5e's Monstrous Menagerie and the Monster Overhaul, both with different emphases of course). Nothing rivals the 2e MM for data, and I love data.

Also for me art is generally incidental beyond the utility of knowing what something looks like, so there's that too. To me, the 5.5 MM has a very specific presentation of their IP they want to show to the customers they care about the most, and that presentation IMO is lacking what makes me want to buy a gamebook.

 

[Incenjucar]

Thank you for the clarification. That is basically how I see it as well. But I don't think it is one or the other, it is a give and take. I imagine the designers are sincerely designing the best product that can within a given budget, like the vast majority of all products. Rarely is someone told: design whatever you want we will find the money! And, honestly, that doesn't always produce the best results either. I can easily give examples in my field (architecture) if you would like.

So is the 2024 MM 100% want the designers want, probably not. However, it could be sincerely the best result outcome they think for purchasers given any number of constraints.

I'm sure the designers are doing their best within the constraints, my curiosity is about how much of this is constraints and how much of it is design philosophy that would apply even without constraints. How would things differ if the designers were making indie projects, etc.

Edit: And for clarity, this is neutral curiosity. Design philosophies differ through time and between groups. My preferences are what they are, but my perspective isn't a fresh one.

 

[TheSword]

Again, dated is relative. For my money official D&D has never done better, and only a couple 3pp monster books rival it in my appreciation (my favorites are A5e's Monstrous Menagerie and the Monster Overhaul, both with different emphases of course). Nothing rivals the 2e MM for data, and I love data.

Also for me art is generally incidental beyond the utility of knowing what something looks like, so there's that too. To me, the 5.5 MM has a very specific presentation of their IP they want to show to the customers they care about the most, and that presentation IMO is lacking what makes me want to buy a gamebook.

The Kuo Toa entry for the MM spends at least half its considerable word count dealing with the various % of a creature carrying a certain weapon, the chance of various combinations of leveled Kuo toa and the ratios they come in. All of which is likely to be ignored by any DM of any ability. If you were new it is actively detrimental.

Add to the that the fact that the writing is rambling and verbose. Mechanical effects like how an attack works are hidden in walls of text. It’s riddled with spelling mistakes. The stat block is arcane and large parts are irrelevent.

I have great fondness and nostalgia for the MM2 book and its compendiums. But to say it’s the best of bestiary is gobsmacking. I’ve included the Kuo Toa entry so people can see I’m not exaggerating.

Spoiler: MM2 Kuo Toa

 

[DragonLancer]

What I would really like to see is more than one official Monster Manual for 5e. There are a lot of monsters that need to be updated.

This! I was shocked coming back to D&D to find one monster manual and MotM. I remember when 3.x had several monster books and NG did Tome of Horrors to bring all the classic monsters back into the game. There are still plenty of classic monsters that need updated and returning to the game.

 

[DragonLancer]

Edit: Double Post.