D&D (2024) Is Combat Tedious on Purpose?

Spending five minutes doing something incredibly boring is only "better" than spending half an hour doing something incredibly boring if you aren't repeating that five minutes on the regular.

But then in old school playstyles, every fight with three goblins in a corridor is that. Combat becomes a dull chore, not an exciting event.


Well, at least for 4e, the idea was you don't do the "three goblins in a corridor" things as fights. Fights that are meant to be over in a couple minutes are simply too small; there's nothing to sink your teeth into, no set-piece, just another tiny bit of whittled away resources, and then another tiny bit, and then another tiny bit, over and over. Instead, one way to do them that is faster per fight is to collect many of them together as a Skill Challenge, where one of the possible results of failure is needing to get into a nasty brawl with a larger, more dangerous number of foes, especially because this allows grades of success, e.g. each successful step in the SC reduces the enemy forces, meaning narrow failure vs narrow success is a small gap, not a huge one. This means the Skill Challenge is still more involved than what any one or even three of those combats would be, but you're resolving half a dozen of them sequentially in that time, so there is still comparative time savings.

Now, I have learned with time that this solution is simply inadequate and unacceptable for fans of old school play. That's why I have been working (very, very slowly...) on my concept of "Skirmish" rules. Skirmishes are, more or less, "little" combats. You may know that 5th edition has rules for "group skill checks"--they aren't full Skill Challenges like 4e would've done, but they're clearly more than just a single check too. That's more or less the space I'm aiming for, just applied to combats rather than skill checks. A "Skirmish" should be resolved in at most two rounds, because the whole point is to make them fast, snappy, a way to give teeth to the "whittling away resources" element of old-school playstyles that has kind of fallen by the wayside even in 5e.

In my hypothetical "6e that more or less rebuilds 4e by taking lessons from 5e and OSR games", Skirmishes would be the bread-and-butter of a game run primarily focused on OSR play with only rare usage of "proper" combats, and generally uncommon or even quite rare in a more 4e-style game. Other editions' styles would probably involve a mix of both. You could spend a resource (a limited-uses ability, a consumable item, an NPC ally, etc.) to improve your Skirmish Roll, and there might be rare incidental benefits that make you better at Skirmishes (I imagine Fighters being particularly good at them, for example), but by and large they're a one- or two-roll per player affair, and then you move on.

Again, the whole idea with my hypothetical 6e is that it develops actual, functional, good rules that are directly helpful for implementing multiple different playstyles, but which can still be integrated together if the table desires that experience. It's not quite the "modularity" that the "D&D Next" playtest promised, but it's a damn sight closer than the 5e we actually got. Think of it less like rule "modules" and more like rule...."branches." All of the branches are part of the tree. All of them get proportionate resources and attention. None of them are neglected or ghettoized or dismissed as second-rate. In theory, a single campaign could try to use all of them, but it probably would be unwieldy to attempt this without great care.

Erm 4E combats were even more tedious. Took to damn long.

5.5 might have the sweet spot.

OP are you actually playing 5.5? Or yet again insinuating not 4E is bad?

There's a lot more depth to 5.5 that I suspect you've missed. It's biggest problem imho is the power level. It's the most powerful version of D&D printed imho at least at levels that matter vs high level theorycraft 3.0 builds.
 

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Never said the game doesn't require a DM.

What I said it is that if your players don't power game your damage, the DM doesn't give damage increase weapons, or provide alternative forms of damage, the game can get tedious at mid levels as players repeat the same complex actions turn after turn after combat after combat as they grind through the high HP of mid level monsters.


If your players power game, or your DM Monty Hauls, or the DM is good with improvisation you'll never see this tedium.

I have had groups that range from pathetic at combat where I have to use kid gloves to reasonably optimized and fun to challenge. I don't blame the game if I can't adjust the game to fit both. It's always been up to the DM to work with the group to figure out how to make the game enjoyable at all levels. For the games I run and play the game is rarely tedious. If it is tedious too frequently for too long I'll find a different game because the DM is not right for me.

Obviously nothing is going to change your stance. I can only say that I've played with many different DMs and groups over the past decade with 5 and the game is rarely tedious and when it is I don't blame the rules of the game.
 

But if each strike could be a kill does that not incentivize players to find other solutions than just trading blows with the enemy?

I started with noting that sometimes, traditional games leave you in the position that just trading blows is already the optimal choice.

Making each blow deadly doesn't necessarily change that. Indeed, unless there is asymmetry, it probably incentivizes trading blows, as PC blows are also deadly, right?

Players cannot summon infinite damage out of the ether.


I guess my next question would be, is it possible to make combat exciting through narrative while still just using the same attack and roll for damage sequence?

I will try to remember to answer this when I am not on my phone.
 

The game works because there's a DM, that's always been true. The game is interesting primarily because you have engaged players in both roles. Meanwhile add in too much complexity and mechanically interesting options and it begins to feel like a glorified boardgame.
Almost the entirety of all three core books is in some way dedicated to combat. The resulting combat should avoid obvious tedium without resorting to "your the gm, you fix it" to paper over obvious problems created by an short-sighted persuit of streamlined simplicity.
 


Almost the entirety of all three core books is in some way dedicated to combat. The resulting combat should avoid obvious tedium without resorting to "your the gm, you fix it" to paper over obvious problems created by an short-sighted persuit of streamlined simplicity.

If combat in DnD doesn't work for you there are plenty of third party options or other games. It's not an issue for me or the people I've played with.
 

In 5 if I throw a band of dozen CR 2 monsters against a 6th level party I don't expect it to be deadly but it would likely be a challenge. Kick up the numbers by another half dozen and I'd likely be looking at a TPK. If it's a 10th level party I'd likely start using mob rules if I didn't for the 6th level party but once again if I throw a small army of CR 2 enemies at them it's going to be a challenge.

In 3 or 4 I would never bother because they would only hit on a 20 which meant that we just had the escalator or ever increasing numbers that gave the illusion of growth. In 5 if we use a monster that gets advantage like berserkers and don't hand out AC boosting items like candy and those CR 2 monsters are going to hit even higher level PCs in the party about half the time. In 5th I'm more likely use the CR 2 monsters as cannon fodder for the big threat but they are still more than just a speed bump.
According to the actual 5e rules, twelve CR 2 creatures vs 5 level 6 characters would be not only deadly, it would be well beyond deadly, over double deadly in fact.

By comparison, if scaled to 4e levels, both of your claims are completely incorrect. CR 2 is equivalent to saying a monster is meant to be able to take on a full party of level 2 characters, aka a level 3 solo in 4e terms (as 2 5e levels = 3 4e levels). Level 6 characters in 5e are equivalent to level 9 characters in 4e terms, so you'd be fielding monsters 6 levels below the party, but they're very strong monsters because they're solos. The monsters absolutely would not need 20s to hit. At level 9, a character has gained +2 to two ability scores, one of which almost certainly should increase their AC. Characters would be expected to have +1 or +2 magic armor at this point, so they would (most likely) have: Leather or Hide (AC 12 or 13), +5 ability mod, +2 from magic armor, +4 from half-level bonus = 23 or 24.

Creatures in 4e (whether using the original creature stats or MM3/MV stats) have a base hit bonus of +5 for a "zero level" monster, increasing by 1 per level, so these would have +8. So their maximum roll is 28, meaning they hit on a 15 or higher (16 or higher for better-armored PCs). Further, while the PCs will almost always land their attacks, because these are Solos they have 4x as much HP as a Standard monster. The party lands almost every attack, but they have so much HP to chew through, these monsters still stand a chance of taking somebody down. A typical character should be doing very roughly 32 damage on an ordinary hit, vs the 192 HP these solos have, meaning each one takes around six ordinary hits to kill. They're gonna last quite a while, and with a whopping 12 of them it'll take a while to take 'em down. A slow and probably grindy fight, but still challenging especially if there's more to it than just 12 creatures on an empty flat plane.

So....yeah. Your CR 2 monster horde is not only deadly, it's super ultra deadly, exactly the opposite of what you've described, and the 4e monsters you described, while not hard, would still pose a challenge simply because of how many there are, seeing as you'd expect an average of 3 landed hits per round (and around 20% of those hits will be crits!)
 

By comparison, if scaled to 4e levels, both of your claims are completely incorrect. CR 2 is equivalent to saying a monster is meant to be able to take on a full party of level 2 characters, aka a level 3 solo in 4e terms (as 2 5e levels = 3 4e levels).
you could also stat them out as level 8 or 9 elites, level 12 or 13 standards, or level 20 or 21 minions, if im not mistaken, by using the xp thresholds as a benchmark to convert them to different types of creatures.
 

According to the actual 5e rules, twelve CR 2 creatures vs 5 level 6 characters would be not only deadly, it would be well beyond deadly, over double deadly in fact.

By comparison, if scaled to 4e levels, both of your claims are completely incorrect. CR 2 is equivalent to saying a monster is meant to be able to take on a full party of level 2 characters, aka a level 3 solo in 4e terms (as 2 5e levels = 3 4e levels). Level 6 characters in 5e are equivalent to level 9 characters in 4e terms, so you'd be fielding monsters 6 levels below the party, but they're very strong monsters because they're solos. The monsters absolutely would not need 20s to hit. At level 9, a character has gained +2 to two ability scores, one of which almost certainly should increase their AC. Characters would be expected to have +1 or +2 magic armor at this point, so they would (most likely) have: Leather or Hide (AC 12 or 13), +5 ability mod, +2 from magic armor, +4 from half-level bonus = 23 or 24.

Creatures in 4e (whether using the original creature stats or MM3/MV stats) have a base hit bonus of +5 for a "zero level" monster, increasing by 1 per level, so these would have +8. So their maximum roll is 28, meaning they hit on a 15 or higher (16 or higher for better-armored PCs). Further, while the PCs will almost always land their attacks, because these are Solos they have 4x as much HP as a Standard monster. The party lands almost every attack, but they have so much HP to chew through, these monsters still stand a chance of taking somebody down. A typical character should be doing very roughly 32 damage on an ordinary hit, vs the 192 HP these solos have, meaning each one takes around six ordinary hits to kill. They're gonna last quite a while, and with a whopping 12 of them it'll take a while to take 'em down. A slow and probably grindy fight, but still challenging especially if there's more to it than just 12 creatures on an empty flat plane.

So....yeah. Your CR 2 monster horde is not only deadly, it's super ultra deadly, exactly the opposite of what you've described, and the 4e monsters you described, while not hard, would still pose a challenge simply because of how many there are, seeing as you'd expect an average of 3 landed hits per round (and around 20% of those hits will be crits!)

My calculation was for a group of 5 because that's what I happened to have in my calculator spreadsheet. I also never used the 2014 number multiplier so I doubt I would have ever considered it double deadly. I use the 2024 guidelines now where medium encounters top out at 5,000 XP and high at 7,000. A dozen CR 2 monsters comes in at 5,400 XP. So a medium encounter for one of my groups and a somewhat difficult one for my other. It's been working about as expected for my groups. But the budgets have worked well.

As an example of encounter budgeting last Sunday I had a family game. They're level 6 but there's 8 of them so I threw a CR 8 T-Rex and 3 Young Spinosaurus from Tome of Beasts 1 as stand-ins for juvenile T-Rexes. I wanted a tough fight because I knew it was the only fight between long rests so with a medium XP budget of 8,000 and high of 11,200 I shot for 9,300. Everyone survived but it did keep them on their toes and it helps that I know that my wife runs a very effective cleric.

In 4 I wouldn't have bothered using CR 2 monsters against a 6th level party because they are more than 2 levels below the PCs and likely would have been ineffective. But I'm not discussing specific details of encounter builds in 4 since it's been a decade since I played that.
 

My calculation was for a group of 5 because that's what I happened to have in my calculator spreadsheet. I also never used the 2014 number multiplier so I doubt I would have ever considered it double deadly. I use the 2024 guidelines now where medium encounters top out at 5,000 XP and high at 7,000. A dozen CR 2 monsters comes in at 5,400 XP. So a medium encounter for one of my groups and a somewhat difficult one for my other. It's been working about as expected for my groups. But the budgets have worked well.

As an example of encounter budgeting last Sunday I had a family game. They're level 6 but there's 8 of them so I threw a CR 8 T-Rex and 3 Young Spinosaurus from Tome of Beasts 1 as stand-ins for juvenile T-Rexes. I wanted a tough fight because I knew it was the only fight between long rests so with a medium XP budget of 8,000 and high of 11,200 I shot for 9,300. Everyone survived but it did keep them on their toes and it helps that I know that my wife runs a very effective cleric.

In 4 I wouldn't have bothered using CR 2 monsters against a 6th level party because they are more than 2 levels below the PCs and likely would have been ineffective. But I'm not discussing specific details of encounter builds in 4 since it's been a decade since I played that.
Okay?

Bit frustrating to make a passing shot at 4e and then say "but I'm not going to discuss that now."
 

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