GM fiat - an illustration

[Maxperson]

These two sentences conflict.

Not really. In the context of the rest of the paragraph which you cut out, it's clear that he's saying that it's possible to be both, depending on whether the DM is a jerk or not. He's not saying that it's both at the same time.

 

[aramis erak]

Because for some folks, the answer to, "some people may abuse their authority" isn't, "make sure the rules keep them from having that authority". That solution removes the idea of personal judgement and assumes bad behavior will necessarily follow from the mere capacity to exhibit bad behavior.

To me, that is a depressing philosophy indeed.

It echoes a still unresolved pholosophical debate of centuries ago: Locke vs Hobbes. While their debate was over governmental roles, it can basically be rendered down to Locke expecting prosocial behaviors as the unenforced norm, and Hobbes expecting neutral to antisocial behaviors as the unenforced norm. Many over–reduce it to "Locke felt people were inherently good, Hobbes felt them inherently bad."

 

[NN]

No. I'm quoting fact. Take 1000 DMs and have them run a system where there can be no fiat. The game will play the same all 1000 times. Now take 1000 DMs and have them run a system with DM fiat. You will have hundreds of variations. The game will not play the same.

If you think fiat and no fiat is the same, you are flat out objectively wrong. Even if you put on your blinders and only look at one quick snapshot, the method taken to get there is still different, even if you can't see the difference.

What you call “no fiat” is still fiat.

 

[pemerton]

Distance, travel time, pursuers speed and competence in tracking etc

<snip>

Time, method of entry, whether there are several entrances, possibly even the skill and identity of the enemy etc..

These are not fictional positioning when just made up, though.

How many entrances are there into a room in a library; into a clearing in forest; etc?

What method of entry does the hunter/assassin adopt? Do they anticipate the Alarm spell, and predict its AoE?

Etc.

Roll abstracts the context.

How so?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

These are not fictional positioning when just made up, though.

How many entrances are there into a room in a library; into a clearing in forest; etc?

What method of entry does the hunter/assassin adopt? Do they anticipate the Alarm spell, and predict its AoE?

Etc.

What? What the hell you think fictional positioning is then? It is fiction, of course it is made up!

How so?

What you mean how so? It elides all sort of details.

But perhaps it would be helpful if you properly explained how this roll works? What sort of factors contribute to the odds, what sort of results are possible, what dictates when it is rolled etc?

 

[pemerton]

Fiat isn't meant to determine uncertainty. I can tell you with absolute certainty, that if a DM abused his authority like that, I'd walk out of that game on the spot.

I don't think that the original example was in any way an abuse. All the participants seemed to be on board, and the GM was making his decision in good faith. That it's not how I would handle things doesn't make it wrong in some way.

I'll admit I haven't fully followed this back-and-forth.

But using GM fiat to resolve uncertainty doesn't seem outrageous to me. It depends on the RPG being played.

For instance, when the PCs in my Prince Valiant game sailed from France to Italy, it was uncertain who they might meet. I decided tha they met some pirates.

In my Classic Traveller game, when the PCs' starship suffered a misjump, it was uncertain where they would arrive. I decided that they arrived near the world of Ruskin (which I had rolled up some time before, and had sitting on my list of rolled-but-not-yet-placed-on-the-starmap worlds).

Nearly every time a test is failed in Torchbearer 2e play, it is uncertain whether the character will eke out a success but suffer a condition; or will suffer a twist. As GM, I decide; and I decide what the condition is, and what the twist is.

 

[Maxperson]

What you call “no fiat” is still fiat.

No it's not. At this point it's clear that you don't know the difference between DM decisions and DM fiat, so I'm going to bow out.

 

[TiQuinn]

How are people using the term GM fiat in this thread? If it is indistinguishable from (general) GM decision-making then those using it that way need to sure up their usages, because that is a trainwreck of worse than useless (actively confusing) usage. If that is what you mean by GM fiat, then why aren’t you just saying GM decision-making instead?

Because GM fiat carries with it a negative connotation which I’m sure is intended.

 

[Maxperson]

I'll admit I haven't fully followed this back-and-forth.

But using GM fiat to resolve uncertainty doesn't seem outrageous to me. It depends on the RPG being played.

For instance, when the PCs in my Prince Valiant game sailed from France to Italy, it was uncertain who they might meet. I decided tha they met some pirates.

In my Classic Traveller game, when the PCs' starship suffered a misjump, it was uncertain where they would arrive. I decided that they arrived near the world of Ruskin (which I had rolled up some time before, and had sitting on my list of rolled-but-not-yet-placed-on-the-starmap worlds).

Nearly every time a test is failed in Torchbearer 2e play, it is uncertain whether the character will eke out a success but suffer a condition; or will suffer a twist. As GM, I decide; and I decide what the condition is, and what the twist is.

None of that is fiat. Fiat is outside the rules, not within it. If you are making a decision from within the rules, then it's just a DM decision making, not DM fiat. For example, if you just up and decided whether that PC in Torchbearer succeeded or failed the test instead of letting the player roll(I assume rolling is how it's done), that would be DM fiat since you've decided to supersede the rules and make the decision.

Invoking rule 0 is also DM fiat, since it's just a vague, "The DM can ignore/change/create rules." It's really just saying to the DM that DM fiat is okay.

 

[NN]

You are right. I am unable to grasp the special magic that transmutes a Decision into a Fiat.

And because I am a clever and proud fellow, I conclude that this because these terms are inadequate for discussing some probable real concern about Gm authority and player agency.