GM fiat - an illustration

[zakael19]

I don't know Under Hollow Hills in any detail, but know that it is different from AW - and the quote shows that.

I think a skill challenge can be used where what is at stake is the reception of sincerity.

I mean I guess you could say "I'm Persuading them of my sincerity" or something, and I'd be open to demoing that out in a game, but I'm not sure it has the lexicon of actions without getting pretty creative? At least not from the perspective I'm sitting at currently. Always open to knowing how I'm wrong .

What's the issue with fiat?

Do you just want to add a dice roll or are you not sure what you'd be rolling for?

I cannot know the totality of a character acting in a world I merely create in my mind, without the physicality / body language / sincerity / & endless etc. Thus when we hit a certain "this path is in doubt" or "how will this character reciprocate" when it's not merely a transactional event (which a) likely has mechanics to cover anyway and b) I have simple tags and such to lean on), I would like a roll to help structure the outcomes instead of me just inserting something that "feels right."

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why do you keep attributing views to me that I have never espoused? At this point, it's moving from careless to rude.

I've never said the goal is to see the GM's notes. The goal is to learn what is in the GM's notes, by prompting the GM to reveal that stuff, by declaring actions that will so prompt the GM.

I am not trying to be rude Pemerton. Can you see how someone would get ‘the goal is to see the GM’s notes’ from what you say here? Because it looks like the final goal of all this is to see what is in the GM’s notes. Perhaps I am using ‘see’ loosely so I could replace it with learn, understand, sense, discover, etc

 

[Bedrockgames]

There aren't other examples. That's the point: mathematics is the clearest example in human experience of their being answers that are internal to the question (unlike empirical questions), even though no on has decided what the example will be.

i am not getting your point here

 

[Bedrockgames]

In dungeon play I want to learn what is in a room, so I tell the GM that I (as my PC) open the door. This prompts the GM to tell me what is noted in the dungeon map and key - eg "You see a round room, about 20 feet in diameter, with a chest in the middle of it and a door opposite the one you just opened". This is not complicated.

In the mystery game of the CoC-esque sort, I want to learn what Frank knew. So I tell the GM "When night falls I break into Frank's house and search around for a journal." This prompts the GM to consult their prep (canonically, their notes) and tell me what my PC finds. If the notes state there is a journal, then the GM says "Yep, you find a journal sitting on the desk." I then say something like, "OK, I take it home and read it." And then the GM, again by reference to their prep, tells me what my PC learns from reading.

It's not complicated, and I don't understand your determination to make it seem otherwise.

I mean, there is no mystery to solve other than what the GM decided has happened. It's like saying, of dungeoncrawl play, that the goal is to explore and accurately record the shape of the dungeon, not to make a map that closely resembles the GM's map. But - as Moldvay acknowledged up front - there is no "shape of the dungeon" other than what the GM has drawn as their dungeon map

It may be in the GMs notes and mental model but it is still established a mystery the players can actually solve. You can frame it how you like. But there is an objective mystery

 

[Old Fezziwig]

@zakael19 -- I may be oversimplifying this, but why wouldn't just using custom moves based on how UHH handles things not work? I think Stonetop could handle that nicely -- it might not sit right on an expedition, but for homefront stuff, why not? These are the PCs' friends and neighbors and framing their interactions slightly differently than how you would frame interactions with Marshedgers and Manmarchers or whoever else might pay off nicely. It would underline the split between our folk and other folk in the game.

 

[Bedrockgames]

In dungeon play I want to learn what is in a room, so I tell the GM that I (as my PC) open the door. This prompts the GM to tell me what is noted in the dungeon map and key - eg "You see a round room, about 20 feet in diameter, with a chest in the middle of it and a door opposite the one you just opened". This is not complicated.

That isn’t all that is going on in dungeon play. But we have had that discussion before in other threads so I don’t see value in debating it again. I simply don’t share your view on this

 

[zakael19]

@zakael19 -- I may be oversimplifying this, but why wouldn't just using custom moves based on how UHH handles things not work? I think Stonetop could handle that nicely -- it might not sit right on an expedition, but for homefront stuff, why not? These are the PCs' friends and neighbors and framing their interactions slightly differently than how you would frame interactions with Marshedgers and Manmarchers or whoever else might pay off nicely. It would underline the split between our folk and other folk in the game.

Yeah, this is what I'm kinda working on! I was just curious what other people here might've seen (especially @pemerton since he's got an interesting breadth of games I haven't touched under his belt). And it tied to the theme of this discussion, a bit.

Homefront stuff is absolutely what put this in my mind. You have conflicts and moves for them, but the GM Homefront moves that should come into play (Show how others really feel, Draw out their feelings, Change a relationship) don't really have a non-conflict echo on the player side to reciprocate or actively steer the conversation from their end a la Endear yourself to someone:

When you share a moment to become closer with someone else, roll +Charming. On any hit, choose 1:
•We share a look, fleeting or lingering. What does it mean?
•We share a joke. Who or what is the butt of it?
•We share an awkward and blundering moment. What breaks the tension?
•We share coordinated work. What do we accomplish?
•We share generosity. What do we give each other?
•We share our grief or fear. Are we ready to face it?

 

[pemerton]

I mean I guess you could say "I'm Persuading them of my sincerity" or something, and I'd be open to demoing that out in a game, but I'm not sure it has the lexicon of actions without getting pretty creative? At least not from the perspective I'm sitting at currently. Always open to knowing how I'm wrong .

Relevant skills would depend on framing of the unfolding situation: Diplomacy, Athletics (if it's a horse ride together), Acrobatics (if it's a dance), Insight (if they try and reciprocate), Streetwise (if you're taking them out for a night on the town), some appropriate knowledge skill, etc.

I think the narration would be the tricky part - how does the GM play the relevant NPC(s) so that the actions are provoked and make sense, without things becoming transactional?

 

[pemerton]

particularly when games and novels are in question

Right, this!

As I posted upthread, "solving" a "mystery" in a RPG is not like actually solving (say) a murder. The latter is not a limited, self-contained thing. But the former is.

 

[thefutilist]

I cannot know the totality of a character acting in a world I merely create in my mind, without the physicality / body language / sincerity / & endless etc. Thus when we hit a certain "this path is in doubt" or "how will this character reciprocate" when it's not merely a transactional event (which a) likely has mechanics to cover anyway and b) I have simple tags and such to lean on), I would like a roll to help structure the outcomes instead of me just inserting something that "feels right."

I use really bog standard conflict resolution.

Two characters are talking and one of them says something. We need to know if it triggers a conflict. So we have to ask if there is a conflict. Which means a conflict between what and what? we need to identify the two opposing forces.

Your lover has deep trauma and you're lying in bed stroking their hair, you see them shivering and frightful and you say 'I'll always be here for you.' What force is that? love probably.

What's the actual opposing force? Depends on the NPC still but try and identify it broadly. Trauma is what? let's say in this case fear of more injury.


love v fear of more injury. can love overcome fear of more injury? we roll the dice and see.

success: they stop shivering as much and press closer to you. still afraid but warm.

fail: they get up and look out the window into the. distant, cold and afraid.


Something like that. Don't know how helpful it is though, might be stuff you already know.