D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

There are several potentially exhausting things in RPGing.

While you might find resistance to change exhausting, someone else might find it exhausting to be socially pressured into change.

Personally I find it exhausting to keep hearing people constantly unsatisfied by what they have to play with, and giving me the impression that they never really play.
There is also those who don't like seeing another demographics' preferences become popular or "worst" take the forefront of the trajectory of design.

One thing I learn as I grew up is a lot of people quickly say "you can do whatever you want" but upset when "whatever you want" becomes the most popular style.

As D&D moves new popular races, classes, monsters, and mechanics from homebrew to supplements to setting based to core rules, "whatever you want" becomes a problem.
 

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Hard disagree on both accounts.

Having worked with refrigerators I know quite well that none of what you claimed about old fridges are true. Buying a new fridge will not save you any money at all, these things are made up by the companies selling you the products. Also I'm not sure what kind of features you want on your fridges, I'd like mine to keep food cold.

When it comes to game design, sure, I'll give you that we have learned a thing or two about it over the years. However, a lot of RPGs are reinventing the wheel over and over again and a lot of the time they add new problems while trying to solve old ones.
Let's see. Features I want on a refrigerator. Frost free is a big one. Having grown up with a fridge that wasn't frost free and seeing the spectacular mess that you had to make every few months to clean up the build up of ice is no fun. Ice maker is very nice. Far better temperature controls. FAR more efficient. Filters and lights that kill bacteria. That old fridge, over its lifetime, costs you far more than one that you keep for about 15 years. You can hard disagree all you like, but, math is still math.

This myth that "things in the past are so much better" is just that. A myth. Created by people who want to ignore facts and instead insist that anything new is automatically bad and suspect. That any change is being done to "gouge the customer" and make more money for the company.
 

Let's see. Features I want on a refrigerator. Frost free is a big one. Having grown up with a fridge that wasn't frost free and seeing the spectacular mess that you had to make every few months to clean up the build up of ice is no fun. Ice maker is very nice. Far better temperature controls. FAR more efficient. Filters and lights that kill bacteria. That old fridge, over its lifetime, costs you far more than one that you keep for about 15 years. You can hard disagree all you like, but, math is still math.

This myth that "things in the past are so much better" is just that. A myth. Created by people who want to ignore facts and instead insist that anything new is automatically bad and suspect. That any change is being done to "gouge the customer" and make more money for the company.
On rare occasions, some part of the "myth" is true, but almost always in ways that aren't actually positive.

As an example, in the past, cars were often built out of steel, and pretty solid steel at that. This made them quite durable, and meant that even a severe car crash often would not "total" the car (making repair more expensive than replacement). Now, cars are much more often made of aluminum, with lots of air gaps, usually supplemented with light composite materials. This means even a relatively mild crash can cause significant damage to the vehicle, and a major one will usually total a vehicle.

If your only standard of value is "how long the car will last before you absolutely, positively HAVE to replace it", then old cars are better. But if you care about other, incredibly minor and niche things like "likelihood the occupants survive a crash" or "fuel efficiency" or "lower cost", suddenly the new way is way, way, way better. Being full of all those air gaps? Yeah that makes the car crumple on impact, rather than acting like a rigid body that transfers all of that kinetic energy to the Ugly Bags of Mostly Water inside--meaning the car is a lot more likely to die, but we fleshbags are much more likely to live. Being made of aluminum, plastic, and carbon-fiber makes vehicles much, much lighter now than the past--which means the same engine can push the car at a faster speed, or can push the car at a given fixed speed by burning less fuel. And the cost savings is pretty obvious: steel is cheaper per ton, but you need far less weight of aluminum in the new model than you needed steel in the old one, producing a net savings.

And this isn't even getting to one of the actual serious problems behind the "everything in the past was so much better" myth--which is that the only things that DO survive into the modern day are the ones that were that durable. Of course you're not going to see a bazillion crap-butt refrigerators that went kaput 40 years ago. They've been thrown away or recycled!

All this to say: you are 100% right and it's extremely irritating when people trot out this myth as though it were true. In almost all cases, it's MUCH less true than people think, and even in the (uncommon) cases that it has any truth at all, it's usually a good thing, not a bad one.
 


Decades of marketers tying those two words together has led to that.
that, and things frequently actually being improved in some way

So why do inferior versions of various big-time products keep reaching the market?
mostly because different people have different opinions on what they prefer, sometimes because things are actually made worse to reduce their durability, as selling you something once is not as good for the manufacturer as selling to you every few years because the product keeps breaking

D&D rules do not fall into a category where they would attempt the latter however

Windows 8 was inferior to Windows 7, unless you ran it as if it was Win-7 (it came with an emulator after a while).
not sure what you mean here, the UI? Win 8 did not need an emulator to run Win 7 programs
 

Isn't change vs. progress when discussing games determined by the end user?
If i like the change its progress. If i don't like the change its just change.

I'm 104 years old and have been playing D&D specifically since i was knee high to a butter churn* I have no sense of nostalgia for it. I actually wish Wotc would stray as far from Bobby and his unicorn and Keep on the Borderlands as they can get. But i digress.
The main reason i go with new editions is that my life is joyless and i fill that hole with consumerism. Also, it's just what i know and the people i play with refuse to try other systems because its what they know.

The great thing about change with D&D is that not only can you buy new stuff from time to time (sweet sweet capitalism) but that you can just ignore the parts you don't like.

Also Isn't there some irony in complaining about people who complain?

Game on friends....game on.

*This is probably not true at all and we know this because butter churns don't have knees.
 

there's a sense that we're starting to see the equivalent of planned obsolecence in game design, where a game is expected to last x-number of years after which a new version will come out whether needed or not, all to keep that treadmill going.

Yes 5e was touted as being evergreen, and thus far - to its credit - has at least kept most of its leaves. But the new version still smells of "treadmill".
that treadmill started a lot earlier, 1e to 2e was that treadmill already
 

Player-culture conservativism objectively won the Edition War. Folks with such attitudes know they can force WotC to dance to their tune if they desire.
force WotC? no, definitely not, it’s not like they brought back 3e or something even older. Influence the direction? sure, that is the whole point of asking for feedback
 

force WotC? no, definitely not, it’s not like they brought back 3e or something even older. Influence the direction? sure, that is the whole point of asking for feedback
I don't see how that isn't forcing them to dance to the tune. And this group has always been much more vocal than their size warrants. Sure, you aren't literally getting every single thing you could ever ask for. I never said that. 5e is 100% a bending-over-backwards "we're really, really sorry for ever doing anything 4e did!"*

Most consumers of WotC D&D, even before 5e brought a bunch of new folks in, were not 50+ years old in (say) 2010.

*How else do you explain "a little thing I like to call 'passive perception'" and the infuriating """"funny"""" """"jokes"""" about how nobody could REALLY like dragonborn, or Warlords shouting arms back on, etc.
 


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