GM fiat - an illustration

Below is the flow of a game of The Between. I'm not an actual detective, but the form of play fits roughly with the flow dynamics and general feel of my real life work continuity. If I'm so inclined (very much not right now), I'll stitch together one of our Threats (mysteries) from our Excel Keeper sheet into an Actual Play post.

EVENT IS INTRODUCED WITH INCONCLUSIVE SHAPE BUT REPLETE WITH LOCATION(S) AND SIDE CHARACTER(S), ALONG WITH ROUGH SITE & PHENOMENA-ORIENTED DETAILS TO INTERROGATE.​
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DURING THE DAWN (PHASE), PLAYERS GENERATE A HANDFUL OF INITIAL HYPOTHESES, DEVELOP INITIAL PLAN OF ACTION FOR PARTICIPANTS TO PURSUE VARIOUS LEADS AND INVESTIGATORY RESPONSIBILITIES. THEY THEN FOLLOW UP BY INTERROGATING LOCATIONS, SIDE CHARACTERS, OR RELEVANT REPOSITORIES OF INFORMATION WITHIN THE SETTING OF HAUNTED VICTORIAN LONDON DURING THE DAY (PHASE), THEN, LATER IN THE LOOP, THE NIGHT (PHASE).​
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CLUES ARE GAINED IN SCENES VIA VARIOUS BASIC & PLAYBOOK MOVES (FORENSIC SITE INVESTIGATION, INTERROGATING WITNESSES, DIVINATION MAGIC, SUPERNATURAL COMMUNION, ETC) MADE AND RESOLVED. THESE CLUES ARE PROBABLY A SPREAD OF 30/40/27/3; GM PULLS DIRECTLY FROM THREAT (MYSTERY) ROSTER, GM RESKINS/SUBTLY ALTERS EXISTING THREAT CLUE AS IMMEDIATE SITUATION DEMANDS, GM MAKES UP CLUE OUTRIGHT, PLAYER TASKED TO MAKE UP CLUE (IN MY LAST GAME OF THE BETWEEN, OUT OF AROUND 100 CLUES, PLAYERS AUTHORED PERHAPS 3ISH).​
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CLUES DO NOT OUTRIGHT GENERATE A SOLVE, BUT THEY ACCUMULATE AND WINNOW LINES OF INFERENCE TOWARD AN ANSWER A QUESTION MOVE AND ATTENDANT SOLVE. PLAYERS INTEGRATE THE INVESTIGATION DYNAMICS OF ACCUMULATING FICTION + CLUES, GENERATING FURTHER LINES OF INVESTIGATION WHICH THEY FOLLOW UP ON.​
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RINSE/REPEAT AVOVE LOOP UNTIL ANSWER A QUESTION MOVE IS MADE. THIS GENERATES ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:​
* THE OPENING UP OF A NEW, PRIOR GATED QUESTION AND AN OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE. RINSE/REPEAT ABOVE LOOP.​
* THE SOLVE OF A THREAT (MYSTERY) AND AN OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE DURING THE NIGHT (PHASE).​
* THE SOLVE OF A THREAT (MYSTERY) AND AN OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE DURING THE NIGHT (PHASE) + A COMPLICATION OR A NEW DANGER OR THE ESCALATION OF EXISTING DANGER.​
* A FALSIFIED LINE OF INFERRENCE TO BE DISCARDED + A COMPLICATION OR A NEW DANGER OR THE ESCALATION OF EXISTING DANGER.​
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IF ANSWER A QUESTION MOVE YIELDS A SOLVE & OPPORTUNITY TO PURSUE, DURING THE NEXT NIGHT (PHASE), AN ATTENDANT SCENE IS GENERATED AND WE FIND OUT IF THE OPPORTUNITY PURSUED IS SUCCESSFUL OR IF IT IS NOT AND THE THREAT (MYSTERY) SOLVE IS PERMANENTLY FOILED WITH ATTENDANT FALLOUT (MECHANICAL + FICTION).​
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THREAT (MYSTERY) CONCLUDES AND ITS DYNAMICS ARE ADDED TO EXISTING MILIEU. IF SUCCESSFUL, REWARDS/TROPHIES (MECHANICAL + FICTION) ARE EARNED.​
 
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If no fiction is ever made up when playing a RPG, then all the fiction was pre-authored. Meaning that it was an utter railroad!
my point wasn’t that no fiction is ever made up. My point was that such isn’t the point of narrativist RPG’s or really any RPG. It’s a means to an end. Not an end itself.

Thus it would be extremely reductive to say the point of a narrativist rpg was to make up some fiction despite the fact one makes up fiction in playing it.
 

I don't know and I can't see.

The rules of the game seem clear to me. I believe you that you found, and perhaps still find, them confusing. But I don't understand why.


From DW p 161:

Dungeon World adventures never presume player actions. A Dungeon World adventure portrays a setting in motion - someplace significant with creatures big and small pursuing their own goals. As the players come into conflict with that setting and its denizens, action is inevitable. You’ll honestly portray the repercussions of that action.​
This is how you play to find out what happens. You’re sharing in the fun of finding out how the characters react to and change the world you’re portraying. You’re all participants in a great adventure that’s unfolding. So really, don’t plan too hard. The rules of the game will fight you. It’s fun to see how things unfold, trust us.​

So this tells you (as GM) (i) not to plan too hard, and (ii) to portray a world that is in motion, with denizens pursuing their own goals. It doesn't tell you how to to do (ii), but luckily the rulebook doesn't stop at p 161! Twenty-four pages later, on p 185, there is the following:

Fronts are secret tomes of GM knowledge. Each is a collection of linked dangers - threats to the characters specifically and to the people, places, and things the characters care about. It also includes one or more impending dooms, the horrible things that will happen without the characters’ intervention. . . . Fronts are built outside of active play. They’re the solo fun that you get to have between games - rubbing your hands and cackling evilly to yourself as you craft the foes with which to challenge your PCs. You may tweak or adjust your fronts during play (who knows when inspiration will strike?) but the meat of them comes from preparation between sessions.​
Fronts are designed to help you organize your thoughts on what opposes the players. They’re here to contain your notes, ideas, and plans for these opposing forces. When you’re in a bind your fronts are where you’re going to turn and say, “Oh, so that’s what I should do.” Consider them an organizational tool, as inspiration for present and future mayhem.​
When you’re building fronts, think about all the creepy dungeon denizens, the rampaging hordes and ancient cults that you’d like to see in your game. Think in broad strokes at first and then, as you build dangers into your fronts, you’ll be able to narrow those ideas down. When you write your campaign front, think about session-to-session trends. When you write your adventure fronts, think about what’s important right here and right now. When you’re done writing a few fronts you’ll be equipped with all the tools you’ll need to challenge your players and ready to run Dungeon World.​

Page 167, which is in between the two bits of rules text I've posted, has this in the list of GM moves:

Every monster in an adventure has moves associated with it, as do many locations. A monster or location move is just a description of what that location or monster does, maybe “hurl someone away” or “bridge the planes.” If a player move (like hack and slash) says that a monster gets to make an attack, make an aggressive move with that monster.​
The overarching dangers of the adventure also have moves associated with them. Use these moves to bring that danger into play . . .​

Now I think the text in Apocalypse World is clearer, but the above is hardly confusing. Fronts are prepared by the GM, in secret from the players. They provide and organise the material the GM uses to oppose the players (and their characters).

So the GM's job is to portray a dangerous world, that is in motion and contains denizens pursuing their ends. The GM does this by making moves with monsters, locations and other dangers. And they know what those moves are (or should be) by drawing on the fronts that they have prepared.

This makes no sense to me, to be honest. It seems to have little or no connection to the key rules that I have quoted. And to not really connect to the play of Dungeon World as I understand it, based on what the rulebook says and my own play experience.

The rules don't say prep lots of things. They say to prepare fronts, which contain threats; and to use those actively in play. This absolutely requires knowing what motivates those threats - knowing what danger they pose, and what nefarious things they hope to achieve.

Whether this involves location is a further matter, which I would expect would vary from threat to threat. Your idea of "the area players are going through" seems to me to belong more to exploratory D&D-esque play than to Dungeon World. Likewise your reference to "possible consequences": that is precisely the making of presumptions about player actions that the rules tell you to avoid.

To go back to the example of unwanted attention, it comes up on on p160 (ie immediately preceding the rules I've already quoted):

Part of following the rules is making moves. Your moves are different than player moves and we’ll describe them in detail in a bit. Your moves are specific things you can do to change the flow of the game.​
In all of these things, exploit your prep. At times you’ll know something the players don’t yet know. You can use that knowledge to help you make moves. Maybe the wizard tries to cast a spell and draws unwanted attention. They don’t know that the attention that just fell on them was the ominous gaze of a demon waiting two levels below, but you do.​

This is consistent with the other rules. (Which is unsurprising.) The knowledge the GM has, that the players don't, is in their "secret tomes" - that is, the fronts and threats they've prepared. This is what the GM exploits, to make moves. So, suppose that player of the wizard decides that their PC casts a spell:

When you release a spell you’ve prepared, roll+INt. ✴On a 10+, the spell is successfully cast and you do not forget the spell - you may cast it again later. ✴On a 7-9, the spell is cast, but choose one:​
• You draw unwelcome attention or put yourself in a spot. The GM will tell you how.​
• The spell disturbs the fabric of reality as it is cast - take -1 ongoing to cast a spell until the next time you Prepare Spells.​
•After it is cast, the spell is forgotten. You cannot cast the spell again until you prepare spells.​


Suppose further that the player's result is a 7, and the players choose the first option. Now the GM has to decide what sort of unwelcome attention has been drawn by the wizard? How to do that? Well, suppose that the GM has prepared - as a threat - a demon who is waiting two levels below. The GM then decides that that is the unwelcome attention.

Now, the player of the wizard, or another player, can try and ascertain what the unwelcome attention is. Or they can just take their chances, in which case the GM has been handed a golden opportunity, and is at liberty to make as hard a move as they like when the back-and-forth of play permits it. (Page 166: "A soft move ignored becomes a golden opportunity for a hard move.")

To me, as I've said, this is all clear and consistent.

I don't know what you mean by "more than the absolute bare minimum I need". The rules tell you how much you need - enough fronts, threats and dangers to have useful things to say when the rules require you to say things.

Of course, how you go about RPGing is your prerogative and no one else's. But for what it's worth, I'd suggest that you try playing Dungeon World as it is written and see how it goes. Rather than using it as basically an alternative action resolution framework for an improv-heavy D&D-type game.

The rule are very specific. I've quote them in this post.

So one possibility is that Dungeon World is a great conspiracy to confuse would-be RPGers about the sort of prep it requires.

Another possibility is that, just like Apocalypse World, and as per the rules I've quoted in this post, it sets out exactly and unambiguously how it is to be played and GMed.
Given I did not have the book, and was learning from the freely-available materials online--where the Fronts stuff is in a completely different section, significantly removed from the basic GMing rules--I had no idea when learning how to do things that Fronts were exactly what you're supposed to prepare; their significant separation from the other rules made them seem like merely distant tools, something important but not THE single most critical, most vital thing you absolutely positively HAVE to do. Blame it on bad organization of the documents I read; blame it on not being able to read the official book; whatever you like. The connection was not clear to me and the structure of the materials available to me was a significant cause thereof. I understand this now.

You'll probably be surprised to know that I do, in fact, try to run DW as written. I have, in fact, repeatedly told people on this forum that their knee-jerk distrust of rules-as-written is a disservice to them if attempting to play DW because the rules really are very well-designed. But I stand by my claim that the presentation, in the materials available to me (I can very rarely afford anything at all for myself), was poor and left "prep" almost completely undefined. The page numbers mean nothing to me, because I've never had the book, I've only had the freely-available materials online.

I'm not really sure why thinking about consequences is such a bad thing here though. A nobleman spurned will react negatively. A nobleman served with speed and precision will react positively. A threat defeated might be destroyed entirely, or crippled, or merely driven away, or what-not; a threat the PCs couldn't, didn't, or wouldn't stop will get worse. That, I thought, was a huge part of why you draft Fronts in the first place?
 

I think your last sentence there concedes @hawkeyefan's point: puzzling out the solution in a parlour game, or in traditional CoC play, is no more solving a mystery than playing a dungeon crawl is actually exploring and looting a fantastic cave complex.

Thus, the challenge you pose here is irrelevant:

So I already posted two candidate examples: mathematical proof (on the radical constructivist account; maybe even if Brouwer's intuitionism is true, though I am less clear on this than on Wittgenstein); and measurement of very small things (on some accounts of quantum uncertainty).

A third example that occurs to me is the measurement of the time or location at which an event occurs: the space-time interval is constant, but there is no answer to the question of what time or what place until the measurement is actually taken by an observer who is moving at some or other velocity.

But anyway, as I said, the challenge is irrelevant. Because actually solving a problem where the investigator does not know for certain that there is an answer, and certainly doesn't have a collaborator (ie a GM) actually presenting facets of the answer to them, or presenting points to the answer to them, really has nothing in common with playing a game. Except that both are cognitive activities.
In your last few posts you seem to be taking the stance that the only things that are real mysteries are those that conform to every aspect of a real world mystery.

I’ll assume that’s your actual stance and not just an attempt at showing a contradiction in our position (which is fine if it is but it’s just not clear).

But our position doesn’t entail every aspect being the same as a real world mystery in order to be a real mystery. Our position instead entails that in order for something to be a real mystery that actual inferences and deductions can be made by the players or the real life detective as each individual piece of evidence is found. Supplementary to that is that only pre-existing facts allow for actual inferences and deductions to occur.
 

What you’re telling me makes no sense.
Nah. I can't believe you thought what you said in your last response to me. THAT is what makes no sense.
A GM places clues in a mystery scenario with the express intention of showing them to the players.

A criminal who has committed a crime is not placing clues. They’re very likely trying to not leave clues.
A criminal IS placing clues. They almost all do. It doesn't matter that it's not deliberate. They are placing them anyway. They place fingerprints. Shoe prints. DNA evidence. Camera evidence. And more.
Criminals and GMs are doing very different things. Hence why I say the two things we’ve been talking about that involve GMs (each approach to mystery scenarios) are much closer to one another than either is to the one that involves criminals.
Leaving clues for investigators to find is the same thing. Both criminals and DMs do it.
 

Solving actual mysteries in the real world is nothing like a logic puzzle. It involves collecting information, and evidence (as a special case of information) by actually interacting with the world: looking at thing, poking them, talking to people, poking them, etc.
Great! This is exactly what the PCs do with the fictional world. They collect information, and evidence, by interacting with game world: looking at things, poking them, talking to people, poking them, etc.
I've undertaken investigations into student cheating. These are not logic puzzles. They involve a lot of tedious work tracking down sources (books, articles, blogs, etc) and identifying where the student's submitted work lifts passages from those sources.

Sometimes you know that the student cheated - it is clear that what they have presented in their assignment could not have been written by them and must have been lifted from some source or other - but you can't find the source. All you can do, in your report, is explain the basis for your view that the student did not write the passage in question, even though you don't have the proof.
I believe you. Mysteries in a game are also not logic puzzles. I'm just saying if someone mischaracterizes the game mystery as a logic puzzle, then real world mysteries are also "logic puzzles," because they are essentially the same.
 

As I just posted, this is obviously wrong.
Nope. Your post showed nothing of the sort.
In the puzzle game (and as @hawkeyefan has already posted) the GM has deliberately created clues that (in the GM's estimation) permit the players' to infer the GM's pre-authored backstory. The players know that the GM has prepared these clues and is presenting them as part of narration.

In an actual mystery, there may or may not be clues. These may or may not lead to the correct conclusion. The investigator can't know that any given thing they encounter is relevant at all.
The clues the DM places may or may not be clues, because like a real world mystery, some clues end up being red herrings. These may or may not lead tot he correct conclusion. They may or may not be found. The PCs can't know that any given thing they encounter is relevant at all.

Hmm. What does that sound like? Oh, yes. Your description there of a real world mystery investigation.

You aren't disproving what I'm saying anywhere near as effectively as you think you are. You are confirming what I am saying.
 

This is like comparing rolling a d20 together with a damage die, to engaging in sword play.
No, it isn't. That's a terrible example.

A better example is comparing mock sword play with foam swords in LARPS, and engaging in sword play, but even then the difference between real in-fiction mysteries and real non-fiction mysteries is closer.
 
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No, it isn't. That's a terrible example.

A better example is comparing in mock sword play with foam swords in LARPS, and engaging in sword play, but even then the difference between real in-fiction mysteries and real non-fiction mysteries is closer.
There is also the fact that a world is being modeled for the players to investigate and interact with as they seek clues. This isn't the real world. It is made up. But it is emulating the process as best as people can in a group (and for people who play these kinds of mysteries, it creates the effect that you are actually solving something). This really shouldn't be controversial
 

Since we're still talking about prep and mysteries, I thought I might share a little bit of a contrast between two games I ran last year.

D&D 5e, a tweaked version of the Call of the Netherdeep campaign. This is a pretty classic plot-heavy thing, with an expectation that the players will see a "mysterious thread" and follow it. Let's narrow down to the second adventure area: the fortress settlement of Bazzoxan. Players follow breadcrumbs here, based on weird visions and cryptic statements. They explore around, interacting with hooks present via the form of events and NPCs. Eventually, they uncover enough clues that the weird vision meant they need to go into the twisting temple of evil the fortress is built around/to contain. If they miss clues, they might find avenues within closed off; the plot itself may crumble (and thus the DM needs to ensure they get certain things); and the entire play kinda peters out.

I prepped: the stuff in teh book to be usable at the table, descriptions of events; NPCs and what they want/say/reveal/offer; the map of the town with a key; critical plot knowledge and clues they had to get; secondary quests to add some play time; encounters; and some color.

Stonetop, a Dungeon World "descendent." This is a premise-focused game with a quite detailed setting. We play to find out something like if the characters can defend their Iron Age settlement against the Threats that abound, improve it so it can thrive, and if they'll make it themselves. Session 0 and character creation defines a number of critical elements (much like AW): the playbooks and specific choices therein are communication tools that tell me & the other players what they want to see come up in play (eg: a Blessed is going to emphasize religious practices and natural spirits), the starting situation and some recent history of the town, relationships between each other and NPCs, and some facts about the world. Finally, the most hopeful character makes a roll which determines the starting position for session 1 - will it be full of threats, have some interesting information, etc.

I prepped: the Threats as established during Session 0 (what the Ranger said under their "This Way Something Wicked Comes" etc), and specifically Grim Portents that serve as an inciting event to pull on all the themes the players said they cared about to pull them out of town onto an Expedition. I also write down a few "I Wonder" questions: about the world, and about the Threats that were surfaced during session 0, nothing defined in detail but just "what does X really mean?" I also wrote down a few lines of details or sketched out a map of a location linked to a Threat as appropriate, and some ideas of what might come up in the geography on the way (thoughts I can offer or use on a 6-, or to tempt).

At no point do I assume character action or inaction. At most, I create a set of things that push against the character's goals, ideals, beliefs, or give them opportunities to forward same.
 

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