GM fiat - an illustration

[hawkeyefan]

There is no narrative salience in real life. Information is what it is. It's not presented to investigators by a "story-guiding" narrator.

Exactly.

I don’t feel like I solved a mystery when I play these kind of trad RPGs. I don’t feel like I solved a mystery if I’m reading a mystery novel or watching a mystery movie and figure out the culprit.

I feel like I know enough about story and drama to guess the solution to a puzzle. To assemble the pieces in a way that the picture is revealed.

Only in the sense that he knows who did it. He controls no solution, though. There is no one true way to figure it out, and even figuring it out isn't guaranteed. The players control the ideas, including thinking of things the DM didn't.

Predetermined perpetrator. Not solution.

The answer to the question “whodunnit”. And probably also why and how and when and lots of other factors.

I’ve now clarified this a few times. You can keep quibbling about this if you want.

And it doesn't matter how many times you say it, you're wrong. The deliberate aspect doesn't matter.

I mean… others seem to grasp its importance. I’ve not seen anyone else deny it other than you.

 

[Maxperson]

The answer to the question “whodunnit”. And probably also why and how and when and lots of other factors.

I’ve now clarified this a few times. You can keep quibbling about this if you want.

And also not many other factors. The solution is not under the DM's control. Some factors are, and some are not. Hell, the PCs might just give up and go do something else right in the middle of the investigation.

It's not a quibble. You are just flat out wrong if you say the DM controls the solution.

 

[zakael19]

And also not many other factors. The solution is not under the DM's control. Some factors are, and some are not. Hell, the PCs might just give up and go do something else right in the middle of the investigation.

It's not a quibble. You are just flat out wrong if you say the DM controls the solution.

Are you arguing that in a high-DM authority game, where the DM has pre-authored the clues and solution/answer to a "mystery" that is being investigated in play, the DM is not in control of the solution?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Are you arguing that in a high-DM authority game, where the DM has pre-authored the clues and solution/answer to a "mystery" that is being investigated in play, the DM is not in control of the solution?

He is saying the Gm is in control if the background information and facts of the mystery, as well as things like NPCs but not in how the players go about their investigation

 

[Maxperson]

Are you arguing that in a high-DM authority game, where the DM has pre-authored the clues and solution/answer to a "mystery" that is being investigated in play, the DM is not in control of the solution?

How can he control it? He doesn't know which clues the PCs will find. What they might get out of NPCs or not. What they might come up with on their own that he didn't think of and discover clues that the DM didn't place. Whether they will just leave and go somewhere else. If they will fail. The solution involves all of that, not just the guy who did it.

 

[hawkeyefan]

And also not many other factors. The solution is not under the DM's control. Some factors are, and some are not. Hell, the PCs might just give up and go do something else right in the middle of the investigation.

It's not a quibble. You are just flat out wrong if you say the DM controls the solution.

I have clarified at least three times now what I was talking about.

 

[hawkeyefan]

He doesn't know which clues the PCs will find.

I mean… he’s likely created several, so he’s got a good idea, right? He’s also determined how difficult they may be to find and all kinds of stuff.

What they might get out of NPCs or not.

Doesn’t he have a ton of influence here, too? I mean… he created the NPCs. He will decide what they share based on what the PCs say. He’ll set the DCs for any social rolls.

What they might come up with on their own

What can they come up with on their own?

that he didn't think of and discover clues that the DM didn't place.

What clues could exist that the DM didn’t place?

 

[zakael19]

How can he control it? He doesn't know which clues the PCs will find. What they might get out of NPCs or not. What they might come up with on their own that he didn't think of and discover clues that the DM didn't place. Whether they will just leave and go somewhere else. If they will fail. The solution involves all of that, not just the guy who did it.

Given: a pre-authored situation designed for players to puzzle their way through, with GM placed clues and GM led answers to all possible situations in a high-GM authority game:

-If they leave and go somewhere else, they have stopped engaging with the situation. That has no bearing on the solution.

-If they fail, its because they failed to get to the pre-determined solution.

-If they come up with stuff on their own, it's either: a total red herring, the GM decides that it "counts" and opens new avenues based on what the players have posed, or the GM re-works something pre-written as a clue/answer.

-The GM controls what NPCs do and do not know.


...NINJA'D AGAIN BY @hawkeyefan

Edit: I want to be quite clear here. If @Maxperson is genuinely arguing that given above starting situation the GM does not control the "solution" to a mystery I don't think there's anything productive further to be said.

 

[pemerton]

Yes some adventure structures, styles of play and systems aren’t concerned about having an objective mystery really being solved by the players (for example it can be about the player rolling dice to deduce something rather than the player actually deducing something, or the details of the mystery might not be determined until later scenes). Not saying this is the case with the games you are playing

Hang on - so are you now saying that there can be a "real" mystery without pre-authorship by the GM?

 

[Bedrockgames]

Hang on - so are you now saying that there can be a "real" mystery without pre-authorship by the GM?

No. I use completely different language than you and I think very differently about this. So you are pinning me to an idea based on how you are expressing these concepts. I don't think we are talking about the same thing at all (you keep using the term pre-authorship by the GM).

For there to be a real objective mystery that the players are solving, core details and facts must be established. But there is some peripheral information that is more of a gray area. So for example, that the murderer went to the apartment the victim and shot him is a fact. And the GM should have every fact about that which he can think of. But some times the players will think of things like the security camera footage, that the GM simply overlooked. I think in those instances the GM is still bound to the core facts but does have to think about things like whether it is likely the killer was caught on a security camera. I will say not everyone who runs these kinds of mysteries will agree on this point. Some might say, only the facts and clues determined before hand are to be entered into play.