D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Hussar]

The really funny thing is the quote from the author of the 50th anniversary book doesn’t even work for WotC.

WotC is getting pooped on for not listening to gonads because an author who doesn’t work for the company made a blog post about how he didn’t foresee the traction to the foreword he wrote.

Let that sink in a bit.

That’s how far people will go to blame work for every little thing. An author who doesn’t work for them writes a history book and makes note that some of the stuff in his book is kinda offensive and this is WotC hating grognards.

 

[James Gasik]

That's the reason but it was flawed.

Wish the would power creep the Gnome to hell and back just once lol.

Well there was that time they could have 18/00 Strength, does that count?

 

[Mournblade94]

Yeah, it's only mockery when it comes from a company you don't like and will use anything they do as a cudgel against them

Not that complicated at all, actually.

Hackmaster was designed practically as this site was formed. No one was trying to get points in their little niche community because of Grognards having opinions

 

[The Firebird]

The really funny thing is the quote from the author of the 50th anniversary book doesn’t even work for WotC.

WotC is getting pooped on for not listening to gonads because an author who doesn’t work for the company made a blog post about how he didn’t foresee the traction to the foreword he wrote.

Let that sink in a bit.

That’s how far people will go to blame work for every little thing. An author who doesn’t work for them writes a history book and makes note that some of the stuff in his book is kinda offensive and this is WotC hating grognards.

The quote is from Jason Tondro. His personal page says that he is a "a Senior Designer and project lead on the Dungeons & Dragons team". His credits include the Deck of Many Things. For example, he writes:

"In short, I have tremendous influence over a project, transforming it from a one-page summary into a 256-page adventure, a rules update, or—in the case of the Deck of Many Things—a boxed set."

Is he no longer with the company?

 

[Mournblade94]

I for one think the people who complained about the 50th anniversary handling of Gary's words SHOULD be unwelcomed. They can go play Lamentations of the Flame Princess if they are so upset about sexism and other prejudice being called out in older gaming. I'm not getting into the Paradox of Tolerance. Good riddance.

When is the Popper Medal being sent to you for your noble stance on an unnecessary book edition? I bet its shiny!

 

[Mournblade94]

The quote is from Jason Tondro. His personal page says that he is a "a Senior Designer and project lead on the Dungeons & Dragons team". His credits include the Deck of Many Things. For example, he writes:

"In short, I have tremendous influence over a project, transforming it from a one-page summary into a 256-page adventure, a rules update, or—in the case of the Deck of Many Things—a boxed set."

Is he no longer with the company?

We can only hope. I still buy stuff from the company because my daughter wants me to run 5e.

 

[Lanefan]

Heh. See, that's where play experience comes in. I've played KotB back in the day and much later as well, and not once was it ever done as a "sneak in, find allies stealth mission."

For one, AFAIR, there are no allies in the caves to speak of. And, one of the bigger changes in playstyle is party size. Basic/Expert or AD&D were both based around a group of 6-8 PC's plus NPC's. You weren't overwhelmed by enemies in KotB. Those were mostly on par encounters. Well presuming that you didn't go into the wrong cave of course.

Tell that to the 22 characters who died when I ran KotB at the start of my current campaign.

They tried face-charging the place. Not many survivors.

They tried stealth. Worked a bit better until it didn't. Not many survivors.

They tried playing factions by befriending the Hobgoblins. Worked much better, until they foolishly pissed off those same Hobs who then uprooted and left the whole area. So back to plans A and-or B.

And through all of this they also kept up a murderous string of infighting.

All of this was four players running a party whose size (when all alive) was usually about 8 or 9, all raw 1st-level types. One PC made it all the way through from start to end.

But, it was easily possible that your AD&D group had 10-12 characters (between PC's, NPC's and various others) plus pets and whatnot. That's, to me, where the big change in playstyle has come in with WotC D&D. The presumption of a MUCH smaller group. A 5e group is generally 3-5 characters and that's what the game presumes.

And funnily enough, I think you have it exactly backwards. The Basic/Expert or AD&D group storms the dungeon. Why would they bother with stealth?

Because storming the dungeon gets you killed. Sending out the stealthies to scout ahead tended to keep everyone alive much longer.

5e is FAR more lethal than AD&D at those levels if you use AD&D numbers against 5e characters. 10 orcs will obliterate a 1st level 5e party. That wouldn't be a speedbump for and AD&D party.

Flip it around and the same is true: put 10 PCs against an encounter designed for 4 and the encounter doesn't have a chance.

 

[Hussar]

Sorry, my bad. I thought it was from Mr. Peterson. After all, it was Mr. Peterson who wrote the book.

But, watching people lose their poop over this has been incredibly instructive.

 

[Hussar]

The problem

Tell that to the 22 characters who died when I ran KotB at the start of my current campaign.

They tried face-charging the place. Not many survivors.

They tried stealth. Worked a bit better until it didn't. Not many survivors.

They tried playing factions by befriending the Hobgoblins. Worked much better, until they foolishly pissed off those same Hobs who then uprooted and left the whole area. So back to plans A and-or B.

And through all of this they also kept up a murderous string of infighting.

All of this was four players running a party whose size (when all alive) was usually about 8 or 9, all raw 1st-level types. One PC made it all the way through from start to end.

Because storming the dungeon gets you killed. Sending out the stealthies to scout ahead tended to keep everyone alive much longer.

Flip it around and the same is true: put 10 PCs against an encounter designed for 4 and the encounter doesn't have a chance.

is @Lanefan, is that your game only superficially resembles what the AD&D or D&D rules actually said. Fifteen pages of house rules means that your game isn't the game that anyone else plays.

 

[Aldarc]

Yeah, I mean, it's not like they took Gnomes out of the PHB or anything...

They were in the PHB 2 alongside other D&D classics that never get mentioned as being "removed" from 4e the way that gnomes sometimes are: e.g., Half-Orcs, Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Sorcerers, etc.