D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Zardnaar]

I still play 2nd edition. It's the simplest arithmetic. It's just not hard

I'm playing 2E tomorrow night. Still play 5E.

Tge engine sucks it's AD&D but there's something there. It's the best DM tool box edition imho.

Lost the thief player though. He's figured out the class is bad. Might offer a rewrote and he can rebuild if he's still interested.

 

[Zardnaar]

As someone who--technically--had his very first exposure to D&D through 2nd Edition by way of video games using it (3e had only just been published, so I didn't have any of the books or even know it existed)?

No. THAC0 was incredibly difficult to grapple with. Especially because it was even worse than Minigiant said, at least in those deeply-beloved 2e-based games.

Some THAC0 bonuses are +X. E.g., "+5 Holy Avenger" means you decrease your THAC0 by 5.
Some THAC0 bonuses are -X.
Some THAC0 penalties are -X.
And some THAC0 penalties are +X, I specifically remember spells in Baldur's Gate II that referred to a "+N penalty to THAC0".

So at no point, in the entire game, were they ever consistent about how any of this was presented. And I would like to be clear here, I'm no slouch with math. I won't toot my horn beyond saying that in pursuing a physics degree, I took a lot of math classes, and did quite well in them. But THAC0? It has always bamboozled me--and the rampant inconsistency with how it is presented simply made things worse.

Yes, maybe, for those people slowly and carefully initiated into the old ways, THAC0 would be no problem. But it is pretty much unequivocally better that we don't need that level of introduction in order to bring new people into D&D.

I gave my modern players the choice of thaco or not in 2E tomorrow night. They noped out along with level limits (I buffed humans).

I can use THAC0 fine they can't. I can also convert THAC0 on the fly into ascending numbers so I can run TSR material in a modern clone and read straight from the original.

A modern 2E would be sweet they need to rebuild the thief for example. I like the DM tools, specialty priests and lack of hit point bloat. Runs well once you figure it out.

Figuring it out can be rough AD&D kinda sucks at that part and 2E is an improvement over 1E in that regard.

They can read say the fighters Handbook or phb and mostly understand it.

Easy to see why OSE basically became the big OSR hit or why it's mostly B/X clones vs 1E. Or OD&D taking bits from B/X and modern D&D.

 

[billd91]

It is but I've seen plenty posts where posters say Thaco was hard or complex and no one felt the need to tell them its relative, I guess only one side needs to hear this universal truth.

As is being made abundantly clear from this thread.

 

[dave2008]

Goddamn. I literally only passed A-Level art because Planescape's art was so astonishingly good it inspired me enough that I actually did my coursework despite my undiagnosed ADHD. Got an A even. I guess art is subjective lol!

Yep! I had some extreme distaste for planescape art back in the day. I have a much kinder appreciation for it now. I still don't like most of it for D&D, but I can appreciate it's unique style.

 

[dave2008]

I literally don't know what you're talking about lol but it sounds utterly wild! Were people like, attacked by a clown or something?

They have been discussing Thaco the clown that was in a 5e adventure (Witchlight I think?).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

They have been discussing Thaco the clown that was in a 5e adventure (Witchlight I think?).

Thaco is a great name for a clown, I have to admit.

EDIT - I read he is Thaco the GATEKEEPING Clown and suddenly I don't think that people were using him online to insult THAC0, I'm pretty sure they were using him to insult people they perceived as gatekeeping D&D.

 

[Mournblade94]

I literally don't know what you're talking about lol but it sounds utterly wild! Were people like, attacked by a clown or something?

No they would respond to Twitter posts and forum posts by using Thac0 clown as an insult.

It is what it is. People tend to think if someone complains about it that it had to get this huge issue. It wasn't.

Enough of the D&D radical political community used it as a direct insult i just decided I didn't want to buy WOTC products anymore and stuck with the huge amount of books I had.

I only came back to 5e when my daughter got interested.

 

[Bae'zel]

I work in UX Design and Digital Accessibility. Many of the comments pushing back against improving usability and cognitive inclusivity of games like D&D are almost word-for-word the same arguments against best practices in my fields.

Basically it boils down to "I am perfectly physically and/or cognitively capable and have no issue with X; if you have issue with X, too bad, not my problem, bootstraps etc".

Empathy is really considered a weakness to some crowds.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

No they would respond to Twitter posts and forum posts by using Thac0 clown as an insult.

But presumably because those Twitter and forum posts were, in their opinion, GATEKEEPING, because I'm reading that the key point of Thaco the Clown is that he was a gatekeeper.

So let's not play-pretend that they were insulting THAC0, they were using it to mock people they felt were gatekeeping, which is very different.

D&D radical political community

ROFL Jesus wept not sure about this one matey-o.

Empathy is really considered a weakness to some crowds.

Probably the most disturbing development of the 21st century so far has been the return of the idea that empathy is weakness or worse, active sin/evil (which is like genuine "WAR IS PEACE" stuff).

 

[Zardnaar]

Thaco is a great name for a clown, I have to admit.

I might use it soon. I've got a horror carnival session coming up with dribbles and nibbles ride again.

There's a a bard trope from Waterdeep named Emperor lead by Freddo Electrim, a group called HISS who perform dressed up as Yuan Ti, and the Carnival of Souls.

Circus master is Lucretia from BG3. Might need to check out Witchlight and use their map.