D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

The THAC0 Talk made me think.

I pondered a RPG where there was just
  1. Low AC
  2. Medium AC
  3. High AC
An PCs and monsters would get a THALAC, THALAC,& THAHAC.

So there'd be no +1 sword.
A "+1 sword" would let you hit an AC as 1 lower

There be no Dex bonus to AC
Dexterity over 14 lets makes you light armor AC count as Medium AC and Medium AC count as High AC.
 

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Ah.. THAC0... I've missed you. But, alas, you live on in 5E with the "number needed to hit the AC".

I still calculate the number I need to roll to hit an AC. For example, the Fire Giant is AC 18, and the PC has +11, so if they roll a 7 or higher they hit.

Traditional d20 Player: AC 18? Ok.
I rolled a 7...+11... is 18. So, I hit.
I rolled a 12... +11... is 23. So, I hit.
I rolled a 3... +11... is 14. So, I miss.

THAC0-based Player: AC 18? So, I need a 7.
I rolled a 7. Hit.
I rolled a 12. Hit.
I rolled a 3. Miss!

It is easier to do the math once than every time you roll the d20.
(Emphasis Mine)
This. You did the match ahead of time to generate your "to-hit" chart; of course, once you started swapping among magical weapons with different +X values, you were probably "adding the plus to the roll" dynamically rather than "shifting X columns over on the to-hit table" in most practical settings.

As was mentioned upthread, THAC0 wasn't as counterintuitive as people made it out to be; the issue is that the Armor Class system was a holdover from Wargaming and its shorthand nomenclature was counter-intuitive. Why does a descending armor class mean improved armor? Use cardinal numbers, not ordinal numbers. To wit,

Would you rather have "first-class armor" (AC 1) or "second-class armor" (AC 2)?

I think once you phrase it in that way, it makes intuitive sense that "first-class armor" is better than "second-class" armor (or "first-rate"/"second-rate" if you prefer), so saying "lower AC is better" makes intuitive sense once you've seen that phrasing of it.

The problems come into play when you introduce magic plusses into the equation and allow armor class to go below 1 (what is "negative fourth-class armor"?) It leads to the silly prospect of a fighter wearing plate mail and a shield (AC 2) picking up a +3 shield instead of his nonmagical shield and having a resultant armor class of -1 (yup, 2 + 3 = -1).

Also not brought up in this thread, some early editions of D&D had "ability checks" (or proficiency checks if you used Non-Weapon Proficiencies) where you rolled a d20 with some modifiers and tried to roll UNDER your relevant ability score (which is why a 3-18 spread for abilities was useful instead of today where for all intents and purposes abilities are really -4 to +4).

The perceived problem with older versions of D&D is that different situations used different rules (Saving Throws? Roll high on a d20 against a flat table against an arbitrary save type. To-Hit? Roll high against a table where you have to cross-reference Armor Class. Non-weapon proficiency? Roll low on a d20. Thief skill? Roll percentile dice and consult a table... and roll below the target number to succeed. Searching for secret doors? Roll a d6? Rolling for initiative? Roll low on a d10. Magic Resistance? Roll high on your percentile dice or the spell fails.)

The "great innovation" of third edition was in fact the d20 mechanic - the consolidation of all of the various systems and their diverse types of rolls into the same mechanic" "roll a d20, apply modifiers, check if the result exceeds a target number, higher is better"). Interestingly, there were deviations from this mechanic even in 3e ("critical threat ranges" and "rolling to confirm a critical" meant combat REALLY wasn't "roll a d20" it was "roll 2d20 and sometimes ignore - or don't roll - the second d20"). We've seen deviations introduced in 5e (spells and abilities like Bless that have you roll a d4 and add it to your d20 hit roll, for example) that get farther afield from this "unified" mechanic. Instead of Magic Resistance we have Legendary Resistance. I could go on.

In other words, we've just re-introduced "small variation" elements from previous editions of D&D that brought interesting tactical options over the years. What are some of the things we've lost?

* Weapon speed factors and spell casting times (1e/2e) that adjust your initiative roll so casting a high-level spell or wielding a huge weapon means you're likely to lose initiative to someone casting a low level spell or wielding a small weapon (back when losing initiative as a caster often meant taking damage and losing your spell).

* BECMI's "Weapon Mastery" system where different weapons provided significantly different tactical options (deflect, delay, disarm, etc.) and damages based on your skill with the weapon.

* 3e's use of "critical threat range" and "critical multipliers" and "double weapons" (yes, I know, everyone mocked the double-bladed sword for being Darth Maul) for various weapons made weapons more varied and interesting (an axe does x3 on a crit but only has a chance to crit on a natural 20 while a longsword does x2 on a crit but has a chance to crit on a 19 or a 20)... at least until the spreadsheet folks among us optimized the system to death.

Of course now 5e24 and 5e derivatives are spicing things back up with Level Up's Combat Maneuvers, Tales of the Valiant Weapon Mastery, and countless third party sourcebooks trying to give different families of weapons different mechanical feels in combat.

To wit, while 3e/d20 tried to consolidate everything into "one mechanic to rule them all" the proliferation of variations off the "roll a d20, apply modifiers, compare to target number, roll high" means that perhaps gamers DON'T want everything simplified. I think the real improvement of "adding numbers to a die roll" is something most people can do in their heads and means we don't have to carry around tables with us to consult (which THAC0 generally needed, at least for your pre-modifier number).

But I would contend "consult the table during character creation to find your THAC0" isn't that much different form "consult the PHB during character creation to find the rules for your spells/feats/skills/what have you." I'll bet most of us still have to consult tables to correctly know how many spell slots of each level our casters have (maybe not at first level, but your base THAC0 at first level was always 19 in 1e so that was easy)... and we don't poo-poo that table lookup and tell casters they need a better system (well, I suppose those that want a spell points system do, but you get the idea).
 

I played a lot of ttrpgs before trying D&D and when I finally got to it it was AD&D 2nd edition. We scratched our heads over the whole THAC0 thing thinking it one of the weirdest systems we'd ever played.

Today I run OSE and find THAC0 to be a easy system to grok. Neither better nor worse than any other system for deciding successful attacks.

We also used to laugh at the whole xp for gp mechanic, which had become an optional rule for thieves in AD&D 2nd, as we didn't know the history that this used to be the default.

Today I love that mechanic as it gives the game a clear goal beyond fighting monsters and in so doing rewards clever ideas in game.

I don't think any system is actually better or worse than any other (except Super Babes which sucks) and I don't think D&D 5e is somehow superior to older versions just by being new. It's just different. If they slapped a new name on it it wouldn't sell half as much because it would just be another ttrpg among many but as it IS called D&D it sells gangbusters and people keep arguing about the rules being better or worse than some other thing.
 

We also used to laugh at the whole xp for gp mechanic, which had become an optional rule for thieves in AD&D 2nd, as we didn't know the history that this used to be the default.

Today I love that mechanic as it gives the game a clear goal beyond fighting monsters and in so doing rewards clever ideas in game.
One of the things I really liked about GP as XP as a mechanic (especially with monster XP generally being paltry in comparison) was it makes it crystal-clear to the players that "violence is not the only option" - in fact, it's probably in your INTEREST to consider "bilking the ogre out of his hoard" or "let's distract him and steal it" or any number of non-combat options.

"Roll for initiative" becomes the LAST thing you want to do... and when you understand that, you discover that optimizing your character's combat abilities is actually one of the LEAST optimal ways to play the game!
 

3E art has aged poorly alongside 4E tbh. Pathfinder as well. Pathfinder cartography is still nice. All imho of course.
I don't have much Pathfinder stuff so can't really comment on that. Such 4e art as I saw was IMO a very mixed bag, ranging from truly excellent to wtf and covering all the ground in between.
WAR being a big offender. So it's going to come down to if you like that style or not. I do not lol.
Who or what is WAR in this context?
 

Dumb, counter-intuitive, inefficient, difficult for some, needless, etc.
For THAC0 as a tool, I agree.

For descending AC as a concept? Disagree. It's no more difficult than ascending, and if the edition I'm playing already uses descending (which it does) there's no reason to change it.
 

In the last 20 odd pages I've been active in this thread I haven't seen anyone make this argument. If I'm misremembering I'd appreciate a citation.

Nor has anyone suggested that people should "put up" with outright harassment. Am I wrong?

Indeed, as someone on the opposite side of this discussion, I explicitly praised the change in art direction from 3E on inclusivity grounds. Was there a large contingent that I didn't see disagreeing with me?

Do any of these claims correspond to what people have said here or are they all some hazy other? On another forum, perhaps?
And now we see the typical wide eyed innocence routine. Nice.

These claims correspond EXACTLY with everything that has been said in this thread.
 

One of the things I really liked about GP as XP as a mechanic (especially with monster XP generally being paltry in comparison) was it makes it crystal-clear to the players that "violence is not the only option" - in fact, it's probably in your INTEREST to consider "bilking the ogre out of his hoard" or "let's distract him and steal it" or any number of non-combat options.

"Roll for initiative" becomes the LAST thing you want to do... and when you understand that, you discover that optimizing your character's combat abilities is actually one of the LEAST optimal ways to play the game!
Except that monsters, unless they had save or die effects, were so weak that killing them was almost always the best option.
 

I don't have much Pathfinder stuff so can't really comment on that. Such 4e art as I saw was IMO a very mixed bag, ranging from truly excellent to wtf and covering all the ground in between.

Who or what is WAR in this context?
Wayne Reynolds. Cover art 4E and Pathfinder.

Very cartoons and oversized weapons.
 

Do you remember how they suggested to make NWP roll-over? I know it's been a minute, but I'm just curious.
I think was just calculate and flip, like Rope Use was DEX+0, roll under normally, so if your DEX is 16, then you'd have Rope Use of 4, so you'd need to roll a 5 or higher to succeed (I believe that's the same % chance, hopefully I haven't gone mad).

This made a lot less difference than THAC0 of course because not only are NWPs used a lot less, but roll under is just a concept, rather than a calculation. Still, it was a minor help in that it meant all the rolls in the game were "in the same direction" - i.e. high = good, low = bad.
 

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