GM fiat - an illustration

@FrogReaver said that, if things are made up in advance, then "the DM can apply inductive/deductive reasoning to them in ways you cannot when they are made up one at a time". Why? What is the evidence for this claim? What is an example of reasoning that can be applied if they are all thought up together, that cannot be applied if they are made up one at a time?
I hope the below will suffice:

Any situation in the fiction that arises in a moment before all the facts are established where one of the facts that is later established would have been relevant to the DM using deductive/inductive reasoning to determine some non-preauthored detail the players 'prompt' him about.

My example shows the application of (simple) inductive reasoning bit by bit over time. Which is what you appeared to be saying can't be done.
1. That's not what I mean by inductive reasoning.
2. Even if it was, i didn't make a statement that no inductive/deductive reasoning could be done. So it's unclear why you think showing inductive/deductive reasoning being done would be sufficient counterproof of my statement. At most I said there was specific inductive/deductive reasoning that could not be done. Thus, actual counterproof would require showing that specific inductive/deductive reasoning was being done.

EDIT: And @Bedrockgames, and @FrogReaver, I tagged you both in a post just upthread which actually illustrated, by reference to an actual play example, the solving of a "real" mystery where the mystery parameters were not all prepared by the GM in advance. What is not "objective" about it? How is it less "true" than a prep-based approach?
I'll take a look.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

@FrogReaver said that, if things are made up in advance, then "the DM can apply inductive/deductive reasoning to them in ways you cannot when they are made up one at a time". Why? What is the evidence for this claim? What is an example of reasoning that can be applied if they are all thought up together, that cannot be applied if they are made up one at a time?

My example shows the application of (simple) inductive reasoning bit by bit over time. Which is what you appeared to be saying can't be done.

EDIT: And @Bedrockgames, and @FrogReaver, I tagged you both in a post just upthread which actually illustrated, by reference to an actual play example, the solving of a "real" mystery where the mystery parameters were not all prepared by the GM in advance. What is not "objective" about it? How is it less "true" than a prep-based approach?
Which post was it. I know I commented on one example you provided me saying it sounded like an objective mystery to me
 

Suppose that you generalised this to the whole of play - having the players provide vectors, and responding to those via on-the-spot reasonable thinking.

My position, in this discussion about mysteries, is that this does not mean that the mystery lacks "reality"/"objectivity" - it doesn't mean that the players are just authoring their own solution.

To refer back to the Cthulhu Dark session I've mentioned upthread:

*A player decides to play a butler, Appleby;​
*I ask the player why Appleby is in London, and his explanation is that the Earl for whom he works is missing;​
*I frame Appleby into a scene involving another (NPC) butler, who is explaining a cleaning process for silverware - thus providing a clue (which the players missed) to the place of lycanthropes in the mystery;​
*I introduce a document, discovered by Randal (the other player's PC), which he first reads as a topographic map (ie that is what I describe it as seeming to be), but which I know is actually a phrenological study of a hyena skull - only later is this document studied more closely (ie by way of action declaration) and the truth recognised;​
*I introduce another document, also discovered by Randal, which is phrenological study of the Earl's skull in his doctor's files - it shows the same patterns as the hyena skull, a clue that the Earl is a were-hyena;​
*Over the course of the session, in more low-key ways than what I have described above, I introduce clues linking the Earl and one of the other principal NPCs both to Central Europe and East Africa, which in turn is a clue to a link between (European) werewolves and (African) were-hyenas - at least one of the players picks up on these clues and recognises that link.​

The decisions I make as GM are responses to the player's ideas - starting with Appleby' missing master; Randal's investigative journalism looking to criticise British imperialism, and then building on that and on the successes or failures of their action declarations.

In this thread, @Crimson Longinus, @Bedrockgames , and @EzekielRaiden (and perhaps also @Maxperson and @FrogReaver?) have all asserted that the play I've just described does not involve a "real" or "objective" mystery, because it was not pre-written by the GM.

But none has explained why: there are clues presented; the players, both in the play of their PCs and in the more "meta" orientation towards the game, miss one (the silver) and draw inferences from others (eg the link between the East African were-hyenas and the Central European werewolves); and they finally work out what has happened to the Earl, although probably not as early as they might have done.

This is where the difference between just making up whatever and following principles in the creation of a shared fiction makes a difference.

If, at the start of the session I've just described, the two players had written down guesses as to what had happened to the Earl, at that point in time there was no "true" solution to check against, because the game hadn't been played yet.

Upthread there's been some discussion of surveillance cameras. In the game where the GM didn't think of surveillance cameras when prepping, the same would be true: had the players written down guesses as to what the cameras would show, at that point in time there was no "true" solution to check against, because the GM hadn't made it up yet.

The camera discussion has been full of accounts of how the GM can make a principled decision about what the cameras reveal (the principles discussed have been mostly the sorts of principles that govern "living world" GMing).

The example of play I've described involves everything being done via principle decision-making, although the principles are different from those that govern "living world" GMing. There was a mystery; bits of it were solved; the players did not make up their own answers, but arrived at solutions via inference (just as they would have if we were playing a traditional CoC module).
@Bedrockgames @pemerton

I believe this was the post.
 

No, you asked a question in my old Cthulhu Dark thread, which was very similar to the question that @AnotherGuy asked @Campbell in this thread.
Probably. Can you be more specific on which elements above were prepped and which were not?
Yes, if the merchant with the blue cloak was a ghost the whole time, yes
@Bedrockgames @pemerton

I believe this was our much earlier responses to the Cthulhu Dark question.
 

Suppose that you generalised this to the whole of play - having the players provide vectors, and responding to those via on-the-spot reasonable thinking.

My position, in this discussion about mysteries, is that this does not mean that the mystery lacks "reality"/"objectivity" - it doesn't mean that the players are just authoring their own solution.

To refer back to the Cthulhu Dark session I've mentioned upthread:

*A player decides to play a butler, Appleby;​
*I ask the player why Appleby is in London, and his explanation is that the Earl for whom he works is missing;​
*I frame Appleby into a scene involving another (NPC) butler, who is explaining a cleaning process for silverware - thus providing a clue (which the players missed) to the place of lycanthropes in the mystery;​
*I introduce a document, discovered by Randal (the other player's PC), which he first reads as a topographic map (ie that is what I describe it as seeming to be), but which I know is actually a phrenological study of a hyena skull - only later is this document studied more closely (ie by way of action declaration) and the truth recognised;​
*I introduce another document, also discovered by Randal, which is phrenological study of the Earl's skull in his doctor's files - it shows the same patterns as the hyena skull, a clue that the Earl is a were-hyena;​
*Over the course of the session, in more low-key ways than what I have described above, I introduce clues linking the Earl and one of the other principal NPCs both to Central Europe and East Africa, which in turn is a clue to a link between (European) werewolves and (African) were-hyenas - at least one of the players picks up on these clues and recognises that link.​

The decisions I make as GM are responses to the player's ideas - starting with Appleby' missing master; Randal's investigative journalism looking to criticise British imperialism, and then building on that and on the successes or failures of their action declarations.

In this thread, @Crimson Longinus, @Bedrockgames , and @EzekielRaiden (and perhaps also @Maxperson and @FrogReaver?) have all asserted that the play I've just described does not involve a "real" or "objective" mystery, because it was not pre-written by the GM.

But none has explained why: there are clues presented; the players, both in the play of their PCs and in the more "meta" orientation towards the game, miss one (the silver) and draw inferences from others (eg the link between the East African were-hyenas and the Central European werewolves); and they finally work out what has happened to the Earl, although probably not as early as they might have done.
For myself it's still not clear when you prepped each detail, nor what reasoning or process you used to introduce the information above into the game.
 


In this thread, @Crimson Longinus, @Bedrockgames , and @EzekielRaiden (and perhaps also @Maxperson and @FrogReaver?) have all asserted that the play I've just described does not involve a "real" or "objective" mystery, because it was not pre-written by the GM.

But none has explained why: there are clues presented; the players, both in the play of their PCs and in the more "meta" orientation towards the game, miss one (the silver) and draw inferences from others (eg the link between the East African were-hyenas and the Central European werewolves); and they finally work out what has happened to the Earl, although probably not as early as they might have done.
I mean, we have explained it several times. For at least the 10th time in this thread, the only context in the way we are using "real" and "objective" is pre-authored. The way you do it is not real in that one context, but can be perfectly real in other ways.

What I don't see is a way for authoring in the moment to be objective. Subconscious bias, as well as narrative games wanting scenes to be personally important to the characters in some way keeps it from being objective.
 


You ask me to think of a vehicle - a realistic one. So I think of a car. Then you ask me to think of its propulsion method. At this point I might think of an internal combustion engine, or an electric motor, but I'm not going to think of (say) a nuclear reactor or (probably) even a jet.
Where is the deductive or inductive reasoning in that? He didn't say that you couldn't think of an item when asked to do so.
 
Last edited:

@FrogReaver said that, if things are made up in advance, then "the DM can apply inductive/deductive reasoning to them in ways you cannot when they are made up one at a time". Why? What is the evidence for this claim? What is an example of reasoning that can be applied if they are all thought up together, that cannot be applied if they are made up one at a time?
When you pre-author the clues and who did it for a mystery, players can use deductive/inductive reasoning to try and figure out who did it.

When you are creating clues one at at time in the moment, there is nothing to figure out. You can take those clues you made and create an answer that fits your clues, but you can't deduce it because it doesn't exist to be deduced.

And again, because people still refuse to understand what we are saying. We are not saying that your way is better or worse. It's just different and will provide a different feel to the mystery.
 

Remove ads

Top