D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

There was no lower limit for descending AC either- oh sure, AC -10 was the limit for players, but some monsters could go lower, so it wasn't an absolute limit.
Sure but not like you had in 3E. In 2e, going past -10 means a Gold Dragon reaching -12 or something. And there might be other examples. But for the most part the numbers are pretty contained unless you are dealing with something quite significant
 

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You're approaching it from your PoV. Most people don't go to university we did.
Yes, I'm approaching it from my PoV and my experiences and those I played with in the 80's and 90's.

University is not a concern. We're talking 4th-6th grade maths.

Lots of kids are also flunking school. Often parents are crap or don't know themselves.
Then simplifying things apparently hasn't helped. Parent might be or they might not.

THAC0s harder than counting fingers.
No, it really isn't... you count down instead of up.

My school males. Drop out rate was around 70%, more than one on 10 were abused it's close to 25%. And that's just the ones I know of.
Only family 3 generations of abuse. Generation 4 broke the cycle but still had to deal with it. Generation 5 one just dropped out of school Age 16 this year. Same reason as Generation 4 (not my kid to be clear).
Ok...

One of my players lives in rough neighborhood. Another her parents can afford to send her to international university.
Ok... And again, university is not the issue.

What's easy for you isn't universal is main point.
Of course it isn't. If that is your point you took a long way round to get there...

My point is were talking about things kids were doing in the 80s and 90s, and adults as well. You knew people who struggled with it, I can accept that, but I didn't. Even my friends who were never great at math could handle doing THAC0 calculations. That has been my point all along.
 

I think where THAC0 gets weird isn't just subtraction, it's that the whole thing is counterintuitive with how you subtract the AC from the roll and the modifier can get negative above a certain threshold.

For example: Ascending AC goes from, let's say, 10 to 20 or whatever. Very straightforward.

But descending AC goes from 10 to -10. Ie the sign changes at the 0 point and now we're suddenly in negative subtraction territory.
 


Well i'm definitely always looking to my leisure game of creative fun I play with friends and family to give me a well needed math lesson as part of the "fun"... its just not a real roleplaying game otherwise... 🙄
AD&D has it! :D

Odds are otherwise it might be "well needed" indeed. ;)
 

Yes, I'm approaching it from my PoV and my experiences and those I played with in the 80's and 90's.

University is not a concern. We're talking 4th-6th grade maths.


Then simplifying things apparently hasn't helped. Parent might be or they might not.


No, it really isn't... you count down instead of up.


Ok...


Ok... And again, university is not the issue.


Of course it isn't. If that is your point you took a long way round to get there...

My point is were talking about things kids were doing in the 80s and 90s, and adults as well. You knew people who struggled with it, I can accept that, but I didn't. Even my friends who were never great at math could handle doing THAC0 calculations. That has been my point all along.

Some people struggled with 4th-6th grade mathematics. There was a special class for those types. Most didn't have the greatest family situation. Most dropped out year 2 of high school year 3 at the latest.

Dome were kinda stupid mist weren't but they weren't in a good space for school.
I beat one of sone on a test by being a smart ass and ticking the boxes randomly without looking at the test.

Extreme cased but yeah THAC0 nit tgat easy espicially if you're not interested in it ir you haven't used it before. My anecdote is newer players can struggle with it. That's not nostalgia either we played 2E last Thursday.

I've also had to send guys home because they're that far gone they're dangerous to themselves and others. One couldn't read numbers. Rare they're out there though. They're not D&D players as such more making a point from what I've seen over the years.
 

I don't recall any creature having an AC below -10, but could easily be wrong. As I don't have my 2E books anymore, I can't verify it.

As for PCs, they could get below -10. I don't recall that being a limit for players... can you cite one??
 

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I think a lot of the fights around THAC0 can be summed up thus:

1. THAC0 is harder than ascending AC vs “no it isn’t.”

Problem: “Harder” is a subjective judgement, and those that disagree with the sentiment above hear it and argue it is not true (because in their opinion, it is not). Those that agree hear those arguing against it and hear “you are dumb” or “maths is easy” and argue against those points. Often the argument seems to degenerate into “it is hard” vs “no it is not.” I think the fact that thousands of early players learned and used it disproves the conjecture that it is “hard” (this is a very different argument than “it is harder”).

Neither side is actually talking to the other one, because they are making two different arguments, all based around a subjective statement that cannot be proven true in all cases. For some, subtraction IS perceived as harder than addition. For others, it is not. You cannot convince the other side to come to see things your way, because it does not fit with their reality.

2. It may be fruitful to posit, “more people find descending AC to be harder than ascending AC.” This is not a statement of opinion, but a statement that can be empirically verified. Unfortunately I don’t know of any studies about this that verify or disprove it, but I my intuition is that this seems likely to be the case, given in most beginning maths textbooks, “addition” is taught after “counting” and “subtraction” is taught after “addition.” Since math as a discipline generally teaches more complex principles by adding them on top of simpler principles already taught, it seems that one might reasonably assume this ordering is evidence (not proof) that addition is usually seen as easier to learn than subtraction.

So I will posit the following are things we ought to all accept as probably true based on implicit evidence until explicit proof or disproof can be found:

1. Neither ascending nor descending AC is “better” for everyone. (“Better” is a subjective judgment).
2. Both are mathematically equivalent (I don’t think this is in dispute, but may as well put it out there).
3. Ascending AC is generally easier for most players to learn and use (based on both “addition” being taught before subtraction and the indirect evidence of nearly all systems shifting toward it over time).

I would venture to say, “insulting those who hold a different opinion on which is better” by way of insults such as “bad at math” or “THAC0 the clown” is unproductive.

Try not to offend other people. When you are other people, don’t try to be offended.

I grew up with THAC0. I can use it, I can speak it fluently. That doesn’t make be better or smarter than those that didn’t. I thought the idea of “THAC0 the clown” was funny because I had seen others struggle with the system (including in the days where there was no Ascending AC) and didn’t take its use as calling me a clown. I see it kind of like the French vs English language dichotomy in Canada. Quite a few know a French (THAC0), even more know English, most people that care to be are conversant in both, and those that don’t care to be tend to think their chosen language is “superior” despite both being perfectly functional languages for communicating ideas. These arguments all strike me as kind of silly, in the same way I think Quebecois that know English but pretend to only speak French (or those that know French but pretend to speak only English) are silly.

If you speak both BAB and THAC0, more power to you. Just please make sure you match the language of whomever you are speaking with instead of being a jerk and demanding everyone use your “preferred” language. Likewise, if you only speak one, you may expect when someone is speaking specifically to you that decorum would demand speaking the language you know, but don’t jump into a conversation they are having with those that speak the other language and demand they switch to yours (that group of gamers playing 1e that speak THAC0? Don’t rush in and demand they convert to BAB and vice versa for 5e gamers).
 
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The thing is that even though I can admit descending AC is more complex than ascending AC it doesn’t change the fact that modern D&D is more complex than say B/X. With subclasses and feats and every other class being a spell caster and four or five different kinds of actions. It’s a lot more to keep track of, they have just changed one complexity for several smaller ones.

As far as gatekeeping by having people do subtraction I don’t think that applies. Had they written the game in a secret language, using forbidden math, that might be gatekeeping. But gatekeeping through complexity is like saying they gatekeep Swedes when they release in English or that they gatekeep poor people because they charge money for their books.
 

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