D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Bedrockgames]

Except when you write "objective setting," you actually mean subjective decisions by the GM.

I mean a setting that is outside the players, that the GM designed. We can quibble over what objectivity means here but I think it is pretty clear and workable in practice that we are talking about a model created by the GM, the players have a sense of exploring. I wouldn't say subjective decisions as they have planned out a cohesive place in their mind and notes and working from that. But we can keep fighting over this language if you want. I don't think it is terribly productive

 

[Campbell]

I still do not get the objective label. Undefined / Defined make much more sense as a distinction. It's not like the undefined portions of a setting are like your opinion man. We just have not done the work to define them. No one would say the part of their characters' life not included in backstory are like subjective. Objectivity / Subjectivity are about facts versus opinions. That makes no sense when we are talking about if we building setting as needed or pre-establishing it.

 

[robertsconley]

For folks who are interested in reading the context of my work on sandbox campaigns, as opposed to excerpts, here are some links. Feel free to ask questions.

How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox
Note that at the bottom of the post are link to other post expanding out each step.

All my Bat in the Attic post on Sandbox Fantasy
I recommend using the next button and then scroll back.

Some of my favorites

My Axioms of Sandbox Campaigns
Talks about the Initial Context, World in Motion, and the Bag of Stuff. The table of contents that structures how I handle sandbox campaigns.

Gaming Ballistic - Majestic Wilderlands Campaign Log
A detailed campaign log of Douglas Cole of Gaming Ballistic experience as a player in the Majestic Wilderlands using the D&D 5e rules. Scroll until you get to the first post and read in reverse.

The World Outside of the Dungeon
I extracted the chapter on campaigns out of my Basic Rules on the Majestic Fantasy RPG and made it a free download.

World in Motion Breathing Life into your City-State
Handling trips in a city.

Mini-Binders
Some tips on organization.

Thoughts on Metagaming
The logistics of tabletop roleplaying campaigns and it impact on sandbox campaigns.

How Much Detail at the Start of the Campaign?
Sandbox campaigns only works if players have the information to make meaningful choices.

The one where I got interviewed by Brendan Davis
Brendan and I talk about several topics including sandbox campaigns. The link is to the podcast not my blog post.

The Rise and Fall of Roleplaying Campaigns.
Sandbox campaigns are one technique among many. This post discusses some of the issues they can have.

Sandbox Campaigns and the Bag of Stuff Redux
Comments and thoughts fleshing out the Bag of Stuff used to handle unexpected decisions in a way consistent with the setting in the Sandbox Campaign.

A Sandbox Campaign, the Nomar Campaign
A log of a Sandbox Campaigns. A practical example of what happens during a sandbox campaign.
Part 1
Part 2
Sorry for not writing Part 3. Basically, what happened is that the players overcame challenges in building their inn, the two most important of which were a rival noble in Oxcross (P) and clearing out a supernatural power in the Plain of Cairns (O).

The Majestic Wilderlands as Persistent Campaign
Comments and thoughts over using a setting over multiple campaigns and with multiple groups at the same time.
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Knowing what in the Book
Comments on player knowledge and how to keep things fresh when sticking to a single setting spanning multiple campaigns.

How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign, the Bag of Stuff
More comments on the Bag of Stuff aspect of sandbox campaigns.

How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign, the pre-game
Later, I call this the Initial Context. The term pre-game comes from the campaign section of the 1983 edition of Harn

How to Manage a Sandbox Campaign
Thoughts on Managing a Sandbox Campaign.

Ending the Sandbox
Comments on how Sandbox Campaign end.

Culture in Sandbox Campaigns.
Sandbox Campaigns has been criticized for PCs being amoral and largely motivated by instrumental concerns. But when culture and religion are an important part of the setting that is not an issue. The following are two posts discussing the role that culture plays in Sandbox Campaigns.

Helping your Players roleplay a culture
Cultural Motivations

Plot in your Sandbox Campaign
Most hobbyists think of campaigns in terms of story and story arcs. This post talks about how I view it as plots and plot arc and the importance of considering them as a plan of action that will be altered by the choices of the players not a script.

A concise definition of a sandbox campaign/setting.
An early post that was made prior to my Axioms post organizing how I think about Sandbox Campaign.

Using history in your game
Comments on the role that the setting's history plays in Sandbox campaigns, emphasizing that the only relevant details are those that impact how characters are roleplayed in the present day of the setting.

World in Motion
An early post talking about World in Motion

Musing on Sandbox Campaigns.
A post where I comment on a 2010 thread here on Enworld where folks were slagging each other about sandbox campaigns

The Sandbox and Player Character Backgrounds
An important element of establishing a good initial context is fleshing out the PC's background. Doesn't have to elaborate.

Some structure for your Sandbox Campaigns.
Comments on plot and sandbox campaign and how the sandbox referee works creatively and has fun.

Simultaneous Campaigns.
Comments on running multiple groups at the same time in the same setting but in different campaigns.

Some Sandbox campaigning advice
How having an initial context where the characters are under orders as part of a group can help novices get comfortable with Sandbox Campaign. For an actual play example, look at the Nomar Campaign log above.

A Definition of Sandbox Gaming
A even earlier post outline what Sandbox campaigns also touching on the history of the term and how it entered the hobby.

MMORPGS vs. tabletop RPGs
Comments on types of players found in MMORPGs and how they relate to tabletop RPGs with comments on sandbox campaigns.

Sandpits to watch out for in your Sandbox
About the influence of locations in Sandbox campaign.

You can't stop the sand from running out of the box.
Comment on some of the issues that can arise in sandbox campaign including an unflattening story about when the players had to Hunt a Cow that happened on my watch as referee.

A Sandbox Table
A actual play report when player choices intersects the fact that the setting has a life of it own in sandbox campaigns.

Things to consider for your Religion
While I omitted most of my worldbuilding articles religion is an important component of how characters are roleplayed.

Other Knobs to play with
Comments on the World in Motion aspect of Sandbox Campaigns when I discussed that James M. and Mike Mearls said over on Grognardia.

Personal Notes
A pair of posts on the origins what I take an interest in Sandbox Campaigns.

Origin of my Sandbox Fantasy
Sandbox Fantasy

 

[Bedrockgames]

I still do not get the objective label. Undefined / Defined make much more sense as a distinction. It's not like the undefined portions of a setting are like your opinion man. We just have not done the work to define them. No one would say the part of their characters' life not included in backstory are like subjective. Objectivity / Subjectivity are about facts versus opinions. That makes no sense when we are talking about if we building setting as needed or pre-establishing it.

It is about facts though. Facts the GM has generated about the setting. You don't have to use it though. You can use whatever language you want (I will keep using it though because I find it helpful). Either way it was one word in the post you were responding to and not even the point of the post

 

[mamba]

At the end of the day, it's just the players doing whatever the DM decides the players will be doing today.

no, at the end of the day it is the players choosing between the options the DM decided to put on the menu, or to reject them all and do whatever.

So to you it is only a sandbox if the DM has nothing on offer, the players say ‘we want to do X’ and the DM then has to conjure everything out of thin air / improvise all of it?

Are there any limitations on what the players can ask for, like eg they were playing on the Sword Coast but the players say ‘we travel to Thay now’ or ‘let us find a Spelljammer’ as in a previous example?

 

[mamba]

Sorry. Not buying it. They are only going to A because they cannot get to D without going to A first. Going to A then allows them to proceed to B. Once they reach B they can now proceed to C. At no point can they achieve D without going through A-C in order.

That is linear by definition.

it would be, but what if they could go to any of these right from the start, it is H and up that require them to level up in A-G before they can tackle them?

 

[robertsconley]

As for linear adventures and sandbox campaigns. I made this post a while back.
Sandpits to watch out for in your Sandbox


Below is based on the second half of the post that is relevant to the discussion on linear adventures. This also applies to the generation of rumors.

---

A lot of people view encounters and locales like the below. Little distinct dots in a setting.


In reality, they are more like this. Ink stains that spread across the landscape, overlapping and intermixing.



In the upper right the orange could be the range of the Dragon Xartha. The next to it is the town of Crendan (light Blue) who been subject to monthly raids by the dragon. Xartha supports the Orcs (Dark Green, right) who menace the human village of Meradar (pink) and the elven forest of Ashenwood (purple). All three are thinking of petitioning the King Orden of Alamaigne for aid (Dark Blue) who has his own problems with Baron Darkeven (Dark Green, left) who is leader of a thieves guild and making a nice profit smuggling into Crendan. In the upper left the Dwarves of Granitestar (light green) have retreated into the fastness to ride out the troubles. If convinced to come out, their aid could prove to be the tipping point leading to victory over Xartha.

What happens in sandbox campaigns is a result of the path the party choose when travelling across the landscape. If they opt to go through the left half of the map above. Then King Orden of Alamaigne, Baron Darkeven, the town of Crendan, and the Dwarves of Granitestar are relevant.

If they go through the right half then Dragon Xartha,, the town of Crendan, the Orcs, village of Meradar, elven forest of Ashenwood are relevant. Different choices by the group will result in different adventures playing out.

 

[Bedrockgames]

no, at the end of the day it is the players choosing between the options the DM decided to put on the menu, or to reject them all and do whatever.

So to you it is only a sandbox if the DM has nothing on offer, the players say ‘we want to do X’ and the DM then has to conjure everything out of thin air / improvise all of it?

Are there any limitations on what the players can ask for, like eg they were playing on the Sword Coast but the players say ‘we travel to Thay now’ or ‘let us find a Spelljammer’ as in a previous example?

Most people I think would agree sandboxes can have a reasonable limit. Expecting spell jammers, goes beyond what most sandboxes promise (if a GM can manage that great, if the campaign works with that kind of idea great, but most sandboxes have some kind of conceptual framework and that framework could exclude things like going into space).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I will let Rob speak for himself, but I don't think Rob is using plot the same way you or Hussar are here. I think I know what Rob is talking about here, but I don't want to put words in his mouth. But I can tell you that the point of a sandbox isn't to feed players into encounters and plots the GM has created, or manipulate players the way Hussar is describing. This is one of the reasons things like Random encounter table are so central in discussions about sandbox.

I am honestly not sure why some posters have so much hostility towards this one adventure structure they feel the need to deconstruct it in this way to prove a point. I have to say the aggressive stance some people take towards sandbox, to the point that they feel the need to build arguments that sandbox doesn't exist, suggest to me there are folks who feel threatened by it or something. If you don't like sandboxes, by all means don't play them (in many ways they can be a giant pain in the ass and they aren't the only adventure structure out there). But the promise of a sandbox is fairly simple, players are let loose in a setting that the GM has prepped and told they can do what they want, set goals for themselves or pursue sites and adventures in the setting. There isn't one uniform way to make them. Some will have preloaded adventures, most seem to try to get a more organic arrangement where the players are an important catalyst for what shape adventures take. But the important thing is there isnt just one adventure for the night. If the GM does throw them hooks (and a lot of sandboxes avoid hooks that would steer a party), the players are free to ignore it and go onto something else.

Yeah, I can't imagine being threatened by sandbox. Adventure path won the popularity contest long ago.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That sounds fairly similar to what I've heard about Worlds Without Number.

Yes, that is Kevin Crawford's advice across the *Without Number series of games.