GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[Upper_Krust]

PS @Upper_Krust : have you seen Twilight of the Gods on Netflix? I think it has some interesting ideas of epic gaming.

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I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, maybe catch it over the next few days. I remember seeing it and then I was busy with stuff and just forgot about it.

I did really enjoy the Greek Myth "Blood Of Zeus" show on Netflix. Love their Gigantes designs and will be interesting to see the power of Typhon in series 3 after he was released at the end of series 2.

 

[Alzrius]

I did really enjoy the Greek Myth "Blood Of Zeus" show on Netflix. Love their Gigantes designs and will be interesting to see the power of Typhon in series 3 after he was released at the end of series 2.

It's a shame they only used that awesome "Warrior's Song" for the trailer and not in the show itself.

 

[dave2008]

I haven't had a chance to check it out yet, maybe catch it over the next few days. I remember seeing it and then I was busy with stuff and just forgot about it.

I did really enjoy the Greek Myth "Blood Of Zeus" show on Netflix. Love their Gigantes designs and will be interesting to see the power of Typhon in series 3 after he was released at the end of series 2.

I liked Blood of Zeus, but I like Twilight of the Gods even more.

 

[Waller]

Understandable Obly amigo. I know some people are against it as was I initially. My situation was one of over ambition getting the better of me.

I commissioned and licensed over 100 illustrations from real artists for this project at a cost of basically my life savings and potentially more than I might even make on this book but I am willing to take that risk just to make this passion project.

But the project kept growing, 400 pages, 500, 600, I split the book into two, Rules and Bestiary. Still it grew. Now it's multiple 400+ page books.

I cannot afford to commission more art.

The artists all got paid, some many thousands of dollars.

My only option was to finish the book with AI generated art (which always gets painted over to some degree by me - with up to 33 hours work in some cases). Otherwise I may as well give up my dream of RPG writing altogether because I have too much invested in this project.

So that is my situation. I know some are dead against AI and they won't support it's use regardless of 'excuse'. In this case that excuse being no artists lost money in this situation, quite the contrary. Artists were well paid til the money ran out. The only person losing out is me.

If people choose not to support this book I will fully respect their decision. I would just like to hope they won't judge me too harshly for its use.

Ugh. You couldn't afford something so you decided to steal it?

The whole point of a Kickstarter is to raise funds to afford to make it. Why not make the extra art stretch goals? If the Kickstarter raises the funds, commission the art. That's exactly what Kickstarter is designed for.

The only person losing out is me.

And the artists whose work is being stolen to generate your images.

I won't be supporting this project if it contains AI art. Please, please reconsider?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ugh. You couldn't afford something so you decided to steal it?

That legal issue is something you'll have to direct to AI Companies themselves - I'm not doing anything illegal.

The whole point of a Kickstarter is to raise funds to afford to make it.

I don't see any situation where that becomes a viable option. I'm not sure if you are up to speed on the cost of fantasy art. It isn't cheap and I have already spent thousands on art for this project (and the next one).

I'll admit over-ambition ballooned the project beyond my capacity to fund all the art, but at this juncture I am boxed into a corner.

Why not make the extra art stretch goals?

You need to understand the math here, I'll be lucky to make enough back to cover the cost of the art I already commissioned and licensed. I fully understand I'm not likely to hit big numbers here - Epic/Immortal gaming is too much of a niche for that already.

I mean Hypothetically I could have a Stretch Goal whereby I replace any uses of AI art with real art, but:

A. That Stretch Goal would be incredibly high and unlikely to be met - I don't even know what that figure would be but, off the top of my head, probably something like £50,000
B. That's going to delay the release 6-12 months.
C. Any AI 'base art' currently used has had collectively thousands of hours of me re-painting it to make it work, I'm not just generating stuff and slapping it down on a page. None of that would exist without a real artist - in this case me.
D. A large chunk of gamers probably don't care one way or the other.

If the Kickstarter raises the funds, commission the art. That's exactly what Kickstarter is designed for.

I very much doubt this Kickstarter will generate anywhere enough to make that a viable reality.

Epic & Immortal Tier gaming is, by its very nature a niche branch of D&D. Its not going to hit massive numbers. My only option was to fund it myself.

And the artists whose work is being stolen to generate your images.

Multiple artists were paid thousands of dollars making this project. I'm the only one who is literally 'out of pocket' here as it stands right now.

I won't be supporting this project if it contains AI art. Please, please reconsider?

I've already crossed the Rubicon on that decision - too much time and money already invested. But I respect your opinion and if I can recoup enough this time I'll be sure and have future projects use real artists for all the art - in fact the art for the next planned book (The Bestiary) was already commissioned and paid for and the art for that book is probably 50-75% complete as it stands. If I make any profit on this book I'll be able to pay my artists to get the rest of the Bestiary art done - if I don't I'll just have to finish that with AI too sadly.

The irony is the better this book sells the more art I can hire for future products and the more artists that will profit from it.

If I knew back then what I know now things would be different, but financially I have dug myself a hole and the only credible way out at this juncture seems to be using AI art.

 

[Waller]

That legal issue is something you'll have to direct to AI Companies themselves - I'm not doing anything illegal.

You're doing something unethical. You are knowingly profiting from the theft of other peoples' art.

And your excuse is "But I can't afford art." So you choose to use stolen art.

I don't see any situation where that becomes a viable option. I'm not sure if you are up to speed on the cost of fantasy art. It isn't cheap and I have already spent thousands on art for this project (and the next one).

I'll admit over-ambition ballooned the project beyond my capacity to fund all the art, but at this juncture I am boxed into a corner.

Then you can't afford it. The answer to that is to go without it, not to steal it.

A. That Stretch Goal would be incredibly high and unlikely to be met - I don't even know what that figure would be but, off the top of my head, probably something like £50,000
B. That's going to delay the release 6-12 months.
C. Any AI 'base art' currently used has had collectively thousands of hours of me re-painting it to make it work, I'm not just generating stuff and slapping it down on a page. None of that would exist without a real artist - in this case me.
D. A large chunk of gamers probably don't care one way or the other.

A. So?
B. So?
C. So?
D. So?

None of these are reasons to steal art.

Multiple artists were paid thousands of dollars making this project.

That's nice for them. How does that help the artists whose art you are stealing?

I'm the only one who is literally 'out of pocket' here as it stands right now.

And the artists whose art is being stolen.

Look. You want something you can't afford. I want lots of things I can't afford. What I don't do is steal them.

AI art is theft.

 

[dave2008]

AI images are a tough issue and I see both sides. It is an ethical question that any small RPG projects are wrestling with. One of my issues is: I just don't like the look of most AI images, I don't like its "style." However, AI can create images in different styles, some which I like better than others. I also think there is a range of use IMO (from most unethical to most ethical):

100% AI image
AI image modified by an Artist
Art (by an artist) modified by AI
Art 100% by an artist.

@Upper_Krust I do think there is a way to use AI images more ethically in your project:

1. Be complete transparent about on the KS page
2. Offer stretch goals to replace the AI art, see below* Even if you don't make all of them, it is showing a good faith effort to commission art that I think will be appreciated.
3. Offer an AI free version (just leave those pages blank). Giving people the choice to not have AI images is really what some people want.
4. Delay is OK, see below.

*Stretch Goals: The AI replacement images need not be a single stretch goal. IIRC @Steampunkette offered multiple stretch goals to replace AI images with commissioned art after she learned about the ethical issue of AI art. She had $500 funding goal for her 5e psionics book and ended up earning over $21,000 and paying for all commissioned art to replace the AI images. So you could do a stretch goal for each piece or possible a goal for multiple pieces. Some BW art would reduce the cost (heck full color could be a separate stretch goal.

**Delay is OK: IIRC, Steampunkette released the AI PDF to backers immediately after her KS closed. She then forwarded the version with all commissioned art when that was ready. I believe POD was on hold until the fully commissioned version was ready. So backers got to PDF versions and 1 print version (IIRC). It can be done.

Many RPG kickstarters are fullfilled 6-12 months after they close - this is really a big issue for many.

Ugh. You couldn't afford something so you decided to steal it?

The whole point of a Kickstarter is to raise funds to afford to make it. Why not make the extra art stretch goals? If the Kickstarter raises the funds, commission the art. That's exactly what Kickstarter is designed for.



And the artists whose work is being stolen to generate your images.

I won't be supporting this project if it contains AI art. Please, please reconsider?

That legal issue is something you'll have to direct to AI Companies themselves - I'm not doing anything illegal.



I don't see any situation where that becomes a viable option. I'm not sure if you are up to speed on the cost of fantasy art. It isn't cheap and I have already spent thousands on art for this project (and the next one).

I'll admit over-ambition ballooned the project beyond my capacity to fund all the art, but at this juncture I am boxed into a corner.



You need to understand the math here, I'll be lucky to make enough back to cover the cost of the art I already commissioned and licensed. I fully understand I'm not likely to hit big numbers here - Epic/Immortal gaming is too much of a niche for that already.

I mean Hypothetically I could have a Stretch Goal whereby I replace any uses of AI art with real art, but:

A. That Stretch Goal would be incredibly high and unlikely to be met - I don't even know what that figure would be but, off the top of my head, probably something like £50,000
B. That's going to delay the release 6-12 months.
C. Any AI 'base art' currently used has had collectively thousands of hours of me re-painting it to make it work, I'm not just generating stuff and slapping it down on a page. None of that would exist without a real artist - in this case me.
D. A large chunk of gamers probably don't care one way or the other.



I very much doubt this Kickstarter will generate anywhere enough to make that a viable reality.

Epic & Immortal Tier gaming is, by its very nature a niche branch of D&D. Its not going to hit massive numbers. My only option was to fund it myself.



Multiple artists were paid thousands of dollars making this project. I'm the only one who is literally 'out of pocket' here as it stands right now.



I've already crossed the Rubicon on that decision - too much time and money already invested. But I respect your opinion and if I can recoup enough this time I'll be sure and have future projects use real artists for all the art - in fact the art for the next planned book (The Bestiary) was already commissioned and paid for and the art for that book is probably 50-75% complete as it stands. If I make any profit on this book I'll be able to pay my artists to get the rest of the Bestiary art done - if I don't I'll just have to finish that with AI too sadly.

The irony is the better this book sells the more art I can hire for future products and the more artists that will profit from it.

If I knew back then what I know now things would be different, but financially I have dug myself a hole and the only credible way out at this juncture seems to be using AI art.

 

[dave2008]

AI art is theft.

While I generally agree and don't like or purchase AI art (heck I typically "unlike" an image on the art platforms I frequent if I discover after the fact it is AI - and typically call out AI art that is not listed as such). It is, however, debatable if it is "theft" in the traditional sense.

4 days ago I went to a lecture by the artist Alexis Rockman about his 1992 painting "Evolution," see below. Which was commissioned for $70,000 and took him 6 months to paint (it is 8' x 24'). In his lecture he pointed out several creatures and the previous work he "stole" (his words) them from, including the dragon in the middle of the painting (Vermithrax from Dragonslayer) and most of the prehistoric creatures (many direct copies of Charles Knight's famous works). These were direct copies (but in his style), much more so than what AI does.

AI images sample in much the same way that Alexis does, but completely digitally and at a much more grand and yet less direct manner. Artist have always copied other artist and, IMO, there is not a lot of difference with what AI is doing to produce its images. The ethical issue for me, is not that act of using AI to create an image, but the idea of replacing people (writers. artist, etc.) with AI generated work. This is, IMO, more a large company / corporation issue, and as much the small indie producer who would normally higher artists to begin with. Heck I could, but will not, make an argument how a small indie publisher using AI art could benefit actually artist.

Alexis Rockman. Evolution, 1992. Oil on wood. 96 x 288 in

 

[Upper_Krust]

Bit busy (girlfriend taking me out for my birthday shortly) so a briefer response for now. But I like the idea of Stretch goals replacing AI art with new art by real artists - rather than one goal to replace all the AI art which may not be viable.

Not sure about the idea of a blank pages (where the AI is) version - how many people would legitimately want one of those? Though I could offer it at a lower price point I guess.

As regards Steampunkettes book a quick search reveals that was 64 pages...not 416. So that puts the funding difference into perspective. Not sure how structured her stretch goals but something to investigate tomorrow.

I was honest about the use of AI. It's mentioned in the Use of AI terms at the bottom of the Kickstarter. I assume it's in the Pre-Launch too.

 

[dave2008]

Have a great birthday! I had mine (52) earlier this month.

Bit busy (girlfriend taking me out for my birthday shortly) so a briefer response for now. But I like the idea of Stretch goals replacing AI art with new art by real artists - rather than one goal to replace all the AI art which may not be viable.

I think so too.

Not sure about the idea of a blank pages (where the AI is) version - how many people would legitimately want one of those? Though I could offer it at a lower price point I guess.

You offer both, if they chose the less art version - that is their choice. No cost difference IMO.

As regards Steampunkettes book a quick search reveals that was 64 pages...not 416. So that puts the funding difference into perspective. Not sure how structured her stretch goals but something to investigate tomorrow.

Absolutely, I wasn't trying to suggest it was the same scale of endeavor. Just that I have seen the concept tackled before.

I was honest about the use of AI. It's mentioned in the Use of AI terms at the bottom of the Kickstarter. I assume it's in the Pre-Launch too.

I wasn't trying to suggest you were not being. Just putting it out there that is is important. I might even provide the breakdown (commissioned vs AI), that could lead into your stretch goals.