D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

No one was trying to be insulting with "dollhouse play", but you found insult in it and demanded either apology or retraction.

Sure, but I am religious and I didn't take issue with the example. I just thought it was silly


@pemerton and a very, very, very substantial group of others (including myself) emphatically disagree.

Yes, if you quote the rest of that paragraph, instead of just the first sentence, you will see that I say it can be done.
 

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The question isn't whether this religion makes sense, but whether the GM thinks it does.
Okay.

A GM who thinks this religion "makes sense" is one I cannot trust not to railroad me.

I disagree. We have Protection from Evil (or Protection from Evil and Good) in the game. You could confront the DM with questions about how we know what evil really is. Or you can ask how they can use alignments when the philosophers haven't resolved what good is.
Except that protection from evil and good is no longer about morality. It is simply about creature type. Not the best example. (Indeed, D&D alignment in general is not something you want to bring up here. I promise you, it will not help your case.)

But you know, we don't need this level of specificity to have a good game. Most people's ideas of good are close enough for it to work.
You don't need this level of specificity for some people to have a good game. "Most" is far more than you can actually defend.
 

Except that protection from evil and good is no longer about morality. It is simply about creature type. Not the best example. (Indeed, D&D alignment in general is not something you want to bring up here. I promise you, it will not help your case.)
It still is in many versions of the game and it works well for that purpose. Ime.
You don't need this level of specificity for some people to have a good game. "Most" is far more than you can actually defend.
My experience suggests most is correct.
 

So the answer to "why do we distrust players but trust GMs" is "because we do."

Now you know why I have said the answers are unsatisfactory.

Note that presuming good faith on the GM's part but not presuming good faith on the player's part is specifically my issue here.
Exactly. I have heard enough nightmare DM stories to know GMs don't always act in good faith. I've PLAYED with DMs that don't act in good faith. I have more bad DM stories than bad player stories, and I have plenty of bad player stories.

GMs are getting a pass because Enworld is full of GMs.
 

Which is fine as a personal preference but you are now trusting the game author to deliver the type of game you want.
I’m trusting the game designer to deliver an experience that me and my table will buy into.

I’m not looking for “the game I want”. I’m looking for a good game.

I try not to play the same game for years and years at a time.
 
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Am I? The DM invents all of these religions personally. They invented the teetotaler god who kills whole families for a single sip. They get to decide everything. Literally, actually everything. How is it "putting the cart before the horse" to assert that ridiculous inputs do an end-run on any limitations arising from "real-world logic"? GIGO is a thing.
Because the real world Logic is arising after the creation of the character. Making the NPC is a creative act but also constrained by what is reasonable in the setting, like whether there is an anti-drinking God. And the. That belief is what comes into play when the PC tries to ply him with alcohol.
 

He could be, but he isn't because we are establishing that the GM is using realism as the or one of the main criteria for the decisions. He is basing that decision on what he considers to be realistic. So realism is the thing driving it.

Yes, I understand that. My point is that though realism is a goal, it's still up to the GM. It's the GM's choice, not realism's choice. So whatever consequences there may be, they are the responsibility of the GM. They've made a choice. They should own it.

Look if I am a player and the GM makes a call based on realism, and it negatively impacts my character in some way, I am not going to be bothered the way I would if he just made the call out of a desire to negatively impact my character. In the former, the GM is giving me a game experience I was looking for. One where the world feels like a believable place, and one byproduct of that is some of his calls on realism aren't going to go my way. That doesn't mean he is morally culpable. That is a baked in understanding if the GM is prioritizing realism: there is a risk that what the GM finds most realistic, might go against what the players are trying to do. And that can be important in player driven play of the type that we are describing.

Again, all of this is fine if it matches player-GM expectation. It's only an issue if there is a misalignment there. Which, if we're talking about player-driven play (I'm gonna use that term here instead of sandbox), then it would seem that in these instances that you're talking about, it's that realism is prioritized over player-driven play.

Especially when an equally realistic option that also supports player-driven play is likely.

If I have knowledge the players do not it comes down to a few of things.
  • Is it possible for the characters know this? Some things are just unknowable, either lost to time or a secret so closely guarded that it cannot be discovered.
  • If it is possible for the characters to know something, is it potentially general knowledge? This is where appropriate checks come in because it's uncertain whether or not someone would know something. There's also a mix, the player may recognize a symbol for a specific deity but the fact that the symbol has been slightly altered may be rare knowledge.
  • If it's not general knowledge could the information be uncovered and have the characters had opportunities to uncover the information? Did they successfully pursue those opportunities to uncover more information?
But is the GM deciding how the NPC reacting? Of course. That's how D&D and similar games work, the GM is making decisions all the time even if that isn't true of other systems. It's not inherently better or worse, it's just my preference for games I play.

I'll address each of your points and how they relate to my overall point.
  • Who decides what is unknowable or lost to time or a secret guarded so closely that it cannot be discovered? The GM.
  • Yes, there are ways to offer the information to the players, or at least the chance to learn the relevant information. Who decides if there are visual cues like an interaction with another NPC or a religious symbol? The GM.
  • Yes, ability checks may help here. Who decides to call for such a check? Who sets the DC? Who decides what information is gained on a successful roll? The GM.
These are all the decisions of the GM. To try and avoid responsibility for all these choices and instead attribute it to "realism" is just wrong. The GM is responsible for so much of it.

Now, if this works for you, again... it's not a problem. But the game does not have to be played this way.

Personally, I want to know how the players will deal with the un-bribeable guard. I don't want to wonder how they'll even find out he's un-bribeable. I'll just share the information. I'm generous with information because I recognize the players' understanding of the situation in play is entirely dependent on my ability to describe it to them. So I share a lot. Why not? What's to be gained? A long drawn-out interaction with a guard? Why? Let's get to the good stuff.

Well this is the sticking point. In the guard example, in my version, the players can learn the information by investigating the guard schedule. But it seems to me that in your version, the GM just shares it with them without them putting in any effort. That seems...odd to me, because you'll have to contrive a route for them to learn the information other than investigating. (Maybe the guard is someone they knew as a kid? They play in the same poker game?).

Indeed, it seems opposed to player driven play to me, because the players don't have to play the game to get the information they need.

Play what game? Twenty questions? Is this what you tend to focus on when you play?

This is the kind of "conventional wisdom" that after many, many years I've come to eschew. There is no reason to hold back every shred of information as if it's a major discovery. You can indeed just narrate things like "you can tell just by the way he looks that this guy isn't going to take a bribe" or "you can just tell this guy is lying".

This is the difference between a principle that says something like "when the outcome of an action is uncertain, roll the dice" and "only roll dice if there are interesting consequences for failure".
 

Reminds me of one of my 1e DMs back in the mid 80's. He had Krull's glaive, Kzinti, Jedi and lightsabers, and more in his 1e game.

Hmm. Games have been that way since 1e. Does that mean you aren't really progressive? :unsure:;)
More that 10s and 20s D&D is a rejection of the conformity of 80s and 90s' expansion for money.

And that rejection returns it to something similar to 70s D&D although with different sources.
 

Firstly: I refuse to be nickeled-and-dimed here. So be aware that if an excessively continuing line of inquiry begins to form, I will simply say as much and stop responding.
that is your right

I have no interest in being continually interrogated until the interrogator declares victory by hyperparticularization.
that is not my goal, I try to understand your point, what it is that makes this a railroad for you

I'm not saying this to be combative, I've just seen this specific tactic used multiple times on this forum and I won't let it slip by if I see that happening. I have not seen it, and I am not accusing you of doing it. I'm just laying my cards on the table in advance.
no problem

So a faith inspired by Islam might result in a particularly devout believer rejecting alcohol in all but the most dire of situations, e.g. to save an innocent's life or some other similar thing.

It was very specifically the unreasonableness of the given example which provoked such a strong reaction.
the original post only said he would not drink alcohol, then someone starting listing ever increasing stakes like threatening to beat them up, threatening to kill their family, so if the priest had caved somewhere between those two, you would have been fine?
 

Yes, but that is incomplete. By stopping where you left off with your point, you missed the larger picture.

The creator should own the creative choices they make; however, it is also essential to understand why those particular choices are made. Otherwise, one's understanding of the resulting work is incomplete.

No, I think I'm the one acknowledging the larger picture.

The GM's decisions are his. Any consequences of those decisions are his responsibility.

The GM can consider whatever factors he wants in his decision making... I'm not saying that he shouldn't. But those factors are his choice to consider.

So if a decision is made and realism is the primary factor, and this somehow leads to dissatisfaction with a player (they feel they were denied critical information to make a meaningful move, etc.) then it's the GM's decision that led to this, not realism.
 

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