D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[Theory of Games]

What is the point in “balancing” stats?

And for the record, Vancian casting is fine.

You almost had me but .... Vancian Magic is trash.

The character spends all morning memorizing a few words only to instantly forget them as soon as they are used? Did the definition of memorize change completely? It's just how Gygax tried to nerf the Magic-User, it's silly and archaic and Spell Points are far more interesting IME.

@Misanthrope Prime PoE is pretty cool

 

[Laurefindel]

.... Vancian Magic is trash.

The character spends all morning memorizing a few words only to instantly forget them as soon as they are used? Did the definition of memorize change completely? It's just how Gygax tried to nerf the Magic-User, it's silly and archaic and Spell Points are far more interesting IME.

I like Vancian casting and prefer it over other types, especially for D&D’s kind of magic. Things is, spell slots are a secondary concept in Vancian magic; the three main principal concepts of Vancian magic apply in many RPGs, some of which use spell points.

1) magic is finite - someone can « run out » of magic until their font of magic is replenished. Many RPG use this for balance.

2) magic is not free-form - magic is performed in specific and limited packages of effects called spells. Some spells are more difficult than others, usually bringing bigger effects (spell levels). Many RPG use this for simplicity.

3) magic is slow - casting a whole spell is too long to be practical in everyday life, so spells are « pre-cast » and their effect is hung until the final step is triggered. This part is only vestigial in modern D&D and can easily be circumvented in 5e.

The more experienced the Vancian magician, the more complex of a spell they can pre-cast, and the more spells they can hang at once. Hence the analogy of a mage packing spells like a loaded gun. Experienced mages have guns of higher caliber and with larger magazines.

Spell points are more versatile than spell slots but they can serve a Vancian system just the same. A lot of people have issues with spell slots but that part isn’t Vancian; it’s Gygaxian. And the « memorizing » part of Vancian magic is almost completely out of D&D already.

 

[NN]

Vancian casting is good
Rolemaster power point casting is good

The half assed compromise that is spell slots is garbage

 

[Koloth]

The game world matters a lot in ability balance. A world where a Powerful wizard is one who can light a candle from across a tavern room just by pointing a finger will have a different ability balance then one where a Weak wizard is one who can blast a tavern room to bits just by pointing a finger. A game set in a modern city would likely downplay brute strength as bashing someone with a club to settle a dispute will likely get the character arrested and sent to prison(out of the game) while someone that can fast talk a solution or plant evidence and then tip off the authorities will do better(stay in the game).

Most of us have had characters that seemed good during creation but once play has started just didn't work well. Probably why recent versions of many games have included some kind of 'retraining' or 're-image' mechanic.

IMO - chasing a perfect ability balance is a fool's errand.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

4 stats, you Could you do:

Physical:
Mental
Spiritual
Social

 

[Yaarel]

in my day we had fighter (str) wizard (int) cleric (wis) thief (dex) with con and cha as nice to haves

Regarding the deep structure four:

Strength = Fortitude → Fighter
Dexterity = Reflex → Rogue
Charisma = Will → Cleric
Intelligence = Perception → Wizard

 

[Yaarel]

To make and have unique experiences with the same class.

It's basically, 2 wizard players can play different types of wizard because wizard is tied to INT and wizard can choose different spells. One could go cold the other fire. One can go abjuration the other illusion. Etc

Rogue get dexterity. One can go Sleight of Hand and Stealth, the other Sleight of Hand and Acrobatics.

Whereas because other classes are tied to less flexible. All barbarians focus on the same Single ability Strength. Strength is one note. 2 barbarians will be playing the same style of PC. If you play a barbarian, you've mostly played them all as there is no Con barbarian. There is no real push of secondary score to do STR/CHA or STR/DEX.

Because Barbarian gets so little from mental scores to make use of them. They are stuck with STR and STR is one note and unbalanced

When applying the "deep four" structural entities, it is reasonably easy to balance four abilities or eight abilities. Attacks are more powerful than saves, but there are ways to find other benefits to help boost the benefits along with the save. Your point about mixing-and-matching different experiences convinces me, it is probably better to aim for eight abilities. Four might feel too inflexible. Eight has more permutations.

Attack/DC Bonus	Save/AC Bonus
STRENGTH	CONSTITUTION (= Fortitude)
DEXTERITY	ATHLETICS (= Reflex)
INTELLIGENCE	PERCEPTION (= Perception)
CHARISMA	WISDOM (= Will)

@Xeviat, this arrangement allows flavorful attack modes. Charisma can mean charming, but instead it can mean frightening, ominous, strong and silent, or self-expressive. What all charisma has in common is a sense of larger than life − a social impact. It is a suitable ability for any mage to utilize, similar to how a Fighter utilizes Strength or Dexterity.

The issue really is six abilities. In the context of D&D mechanics, the number six is what makes balance difficult or impossible, and what cripples the agile swashbuckler tropes. Other numbers are easier to balance.

 

[Yaarel]

Because the mental abilities struggle to find use in combat, it might be possible to balance "six" abilities, if the six are instead four physical abilities and two mental abilities. In other words, Wisdom vanishes into Charisma, while Athletics comes online.

• STRENGTH • CONSTITUTION
• DEXTERITY • ATHLETICS
• INTELLIGENCE (includes Perception)
• CHARISMA (includes Will)

I doubt these six would make anyone happy. The traditionalists would loose Wisdom as an ability, and see swashbuckling Athletics function as an ability. The improvers would still suffer Constitution as a nonignorable nonability. But it is worth mentioning as an example for how to balance six.

 

[payn]

Because the mental abilities struggle to find use in combat, it might be possible to balance "six" abilities, if the six are instead four physical abilities and two mental abilities. In other words, Wisdom vanishes into Charisma, while Athletics comes online.

• STRENGTH • CONSTITUTION
• DEXTERITY • ATHLETICS
• INTELLIGENCE (includes Perception)
• CHARISMA (includes Will)

I doubt these six would make anyone happy. The traditionalists would loose Wisdom as an ability, and see swashbuckling Athletics function as an ability. The improvers would still suffer Constitution as a nonignorable nonability. But it is worth mentioning as an example for how to balance six.

It's weird that folks want to shrink mental stats, yet increase physical ones to me.

 

[Yaarel]

It's weird that folks want to shrink mental stats, yet increase physical ones to me.

Yeah.

That arrangement reminds my of the Cypher System:
• Might ≈ Strength-Constitution
• Speed ≈ Dexterity-Athletics
• Intellect ≈ Charisma-Wisdom-Intelligence-Perception

Some systems have one mental ability and plural physical abilities, or one physical ability and plural mental abilities.

I feel the structure of the D&D systems is best served by an equal number of both physical and mental. (Albeit it is a challenge to find nonmagic combat utility for the mental abilities in the D&D systems.)