D&D General Rethinking Charisma

[GMMichael]

I guess I'm looking for that sweet spot in the middle. And from the wide range of responses so far (thank you all by the way) is the answer is "it depends" which just circles me around to my original conundrum of having a less than ideal mechanic for social interaction.

"Social Interaction" is a very broad target. I gather that you're comparing the rules for combat to the rules (if any) for "all non-physical personal interaction." Combat is a pretty specific subset of physical interaction, so that might explain why it gets a pretty specific set of rules.

To compare apples to apples, you might have better luck finding your sweet spot if you look for rules that describe how to Hold Court or Entertain a Crowd, versus how to Socially Interact.

 

[PvtTommyAtkins]

To compare apples to apples, you might have better luck finding your sweet spot if you look for rules that describe how to Hold Court or Entertain a Crowd, versus how to Socially Interact.

I think that is a fair assessment. It is something that is decidedly lacking in the PHB though. I did find some adventures with ideas for how to run a battle of the bands situation. Which was an attempt I think in the right direction, though these (5e) adventures really just defaulted to roll performance+CHA repeatedly.

So the quest will continue

 

[krillinfan]

I was very recently musing about moving Int to purely a modifier based stat, the issue with Int is that players seldom act like a character of massively higher or lower Int than their own, making a big non-mechanical disconnect for their characters, the same could/would be easily applied to Cha, with players thinking a high charisma gives them jedi mind powers or makes them the worlds most attractive being.

Removing those stats numbers and just saying "my character is charming and so they get a +2 to my charm checks" (as a very narrowed example) feels substantially better than all the other baggage that gets tied into Cha/Int and to a lesser extent Wis.

I'm not sure how it'd work out in practice, but I like it in theory as a way of smoothing out some of the common and more toxic tropes, but YMMV.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

I was very recently musing about moving Int to purely a modifier based stat, the issue with Int is that players seldom act like a character of massively higher or lower Int than their own, making a big non-mechanical disconnect for their characters, the same could/would be easily applied to Cha, which players thinking a high charisma gives them jedi mind powers or makes them the worlds most attractive being.

Removing those stats numbers and just saying "my character is charming and so they get a +2 to my charm checks" (as a very narrowed example) feels substantially better than all the other baggage that gets tied into Cha/Int and to a lesser extent Wis.

I'm not sure how it'd work out in practice, but I like it in theory as a way of smoothing out some of the common and more toxic tropes, but YMMV.

This is excellent. I've been thinking along the same lines myself. I believe intelligence and charisma and wisdom are all bad to have as character scores the way they are because they restrict roleplaying. What if I want to play a stupid wizard?

 

[payn]

This is excellent. I've been thinking along the same lines myself. I believe intelligence and charisma and wisdom are all bad to have as character scores the way they are because they restrict roleplaying. What if I want to play a stupid wizard?

I dont think thats an issue with the stats themselves, and more with the idea of a class primary stat. It makes sense with SAD design to do it, but id prefer a MAD approach specifically so you could make a stupid wizard.

 

[ezo]

What if I want to play a stupid wizard?

Would your character have a low Intelligence? That is the easiest way IME.

Would you (as a player) be willingly to accept a penalty to your spell attacks and spell save DC if your PC has INT 8 (or lower), for example?

Nothing prevents you from playing a stupid character and having the numbers to go with it.

 

[krillinfan]

This is excellent. I've been thinking along the same lines myself. I believe intelligence and charisma and wisdom are all bad to have as character scores the way they are because they restrict roleplaying. What if I want to play a stupid wizard?

an idiot with a book of spells and the need/want to use them is the exact sort of character that I want at a table

 

[fuindordm]

I never allow skills to substitute a different ability score in general play. Doing so negates the interesting choice made at character creation to be better at some things than other things.
If a player wants to argue that they should be able to use their PC's Int score to roll persuasion because they were a member of the debate team at wizard school, then they're basically saying they want to dump Cha and not be penalized for it.
PCs with an array of 14 14 14 14 12 10 are just as viable as those who maximize their prime stat.

 

[payn]

I never allow skills to substitute a different ability score in general play. Doing so negates the interesting choice made at character creation to be better at some things than other things.
If a player wants to argue that they should be able to use their PC's Int score to roll persuasion because they were a member of the debate team at wizard school, then they're basically saying they want to dump Cha and not be penalized for it.
PCs with an array of 14 14 14 14 12 10 are just as viable as those who maximize their prime stat.

Thats really going to matter on edition. In a few of them, that average array wont do anything well except die. I do, however, agree with your sentiment that I dont like ways of weaseling out of pump and dump stat decisions. Though, im also a bit flexible when the situation and context calls for it in a rulings over rules situation.

 

[Stormonu]

Thats really going to matter on edition. In a few of them, that average array wont do anything well except die. I do, however, agree with your sentiment that I dont like ways of weaseling out of pump and dump stat decisions. Though, im also a bit flexible when the situation and context calls for it in a rulings over rules situation.

5E is not one of those editions. I ran a monk whose highest stat was 11, and did fairly well.