D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[payn]

Yeah.

That arrangement reminds my of the Cypher System:
• Might ≈ Strength-Constitution
• Speed ≈ Dexterity-Athletics
• Intellect ≈ Charisma-Wisdom-Intelligence-Perception

Some systems have one mental ability and plural physical abilities, or one physical ability and plural mental abilities.

I feel the structure of the D&D systems is best served by an equal number of both physical and mental. (Albeit it is a challenge to find nonmagic combat utility for the mental abilities in the D&D systems.)

It was well supported in 3E/PF1, but the 5E ethos is one of major simplicity and at odds of balancing out in the system. This is another one of those "you get creative and make a ruling on it" areas. I can see just as much reason to expand on it as to leave it as is. Some want it, others dont. Too bad we will never get those modules talked about in NEXT so everyone gets a chance.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

4 stats, you Could you do:

Physical:
Mental
Spiritual
Social

I'd have it as a four-quadrant grid, with one axis being "force" and "finesse" and the other "physical" and "mental"

Physical force? Strength. Physical finesse? Dexterity. Mental force? Intellect. Mental finesse? Charisma.

 

[Yaarel]

Curiously the AGE system (Adventure Game Engine) for Dragon Age and others has eight abilities. Surprisingly these are three physical abilities and five mental abilities.

Physical:
Strength
Constitution
Dexterity

Mental:
Communication (≈ Charisma, also including Animal Handling for persuading Beasts)
Magic (≈ Charisma, innate magic)
Cunning (≈ Intelligence)
Perception (≈ Perception)
Willpower (≈ Wisdom)

The three physical abilities continue the D&D awkwardness with regard to hampering agile Athletics. But overall, the AGE abilities suggest the eight that derive from the deep structure four entities. Here Charisma equates the go-to casting ability.


When the deep four divide into their eight, even Dexterity is not too powerful on its own and is able to balance well enough with each of the rest of the eight.

An other advantage of eight is, a game table can decide to have four or six, by assigning the same bonus to more than ability.

Deep Four
• Strength-Constitution is assigned the same value.
• Dexterity-Athletics is assigned the same value.
• Charisma-Wisdom is assigned the same value.
• Intelligence-Perception is assigned the same value.

Classic Six
• Strength
• Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics is assigned the same value.
• Charisma
• Wisdom-Perception is assigned the same value.
• Intelligence

Of course, the Classic Six arrangement would be unbalanced, but would feel more like 5e, except Dexterity-Athletics would determine the jump distance and any Athletics checks.

 

[Yaarel]

I'd have it as a four-quadrant grid, with one axis being "force" and "finesse" and the other "physical" and "mental"

Physical force? Strength. Physical finesse? Dexterity. Mental force? Intellect. Mental finesse? Charisma.

I like the quadrant arrangement, Strength‹›Dexterity and Charisma‹›Intelligence

I think of Charisma as the holistic influential mental force, and Intelligence as the analytic attention-to-detail mental finesse.

 

[Yaarel]

For social interactions, "might" often takes the place of intimidation in a general "forceful personality" sense, perception does what insight does in 5e and intellect is just as often used for persuasion as charisma (which is something I resent about D&D, as there's no mechanical way to make a rhetorical, logical argument).

For a strictly logical argument, maybe the DM can call for an "Intelligence (Persuasion) check"?

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

For a strictly logical argument, maybe the DM can call for an "Intelligence (Persuasion) check"?

Can they? Yeah. Do they? Almost never.

The only DM I've ever encountered who uses alternate ability checks with any regularity is myself.

 

[Hriston]

4 stats, you Could you do:

Physical:
Mental
Spiritual
Social

I was going to say this.

These four abilities map to the four classiçal elements as well as four "planar regions" of the D&D multiverse, like so:

• Fire - Positive Plane - Spiritual (Wisdom)
• Air - Astral Plane - Mental (Intelligence)
• Water - Ethereal Plane - Emotional (Charisma)
• Earth - Material Plane - Physical (Strength)

These four would operate pretty much as they do in traditional D&D. Strength would encompass physical/bodily acts of brute force that typically fall under Strength, but could be combined with the three non-physical abilities (by adding their modifiers together) to produce the following effects:

• Strength + Wisdom would cover aspects of the physical body's vitality and endurance typically assigned to Constitution.
• Strength + Intelligence would cover physical acts requiring speed and precision typically assigned to Dexterity.
• Strength + Charisma would cover actions that bring the body's physicality to bear on social interactions, such as certain approaches to intimidation or seduction.

I haven't really thought about how any of the above would affect the thread's concern with "balance" .

 

[Laurefindel]

I was going to say this.

These four abilities map to the four classiçal elements as well as four "planar regions" of the D&D multiverse, like so:

• Fire - Positive Plane - Spiritual (Wisdom)
• Air - Astral Plane - Mental (Intelligence)
• Water - Ethereal Plane - Emotional (Charisma)
• Earth - Material Plane - Physical (Strength)

These four would operate pretty much as they do in traditional D&D. Strength would encompass physical/bodily acts of brute force that typically fall under Strength, but could be combined with the three non-physical abilities (by adding their modifiers together) to produce the following effects:

• Strength + Wisdom would cover aspects of the physical body's vitality and endurance typically assigned to Constitution.
• Strength + Intelligence would cover physical acts requiring speed and precision typically assigned to Dexterity.
• Strength + Charisma would cover actions that bring the body's physicality to bear on social interactions, such as certain approaches to intimidation or seduction.

I haven't really thought about how any of the above would affect the thread's concern with "balance" .

This reminds me of a version of my heartbreaker D&D in 2010 (heartbroken by 4e at the time) where each of the four « stats » had a physical and a mental component, copied from the attributes of Legends of the Five Rings (it would have been the 2nd or 3rd edition at that point).

Fire = Agility + Intelligence
Air = Reflexes + Awareness
Water = Strength + Perception
Earth = Stamina + Willpower

My adaptation was more Alchemy-oriented using Tarot suits as stats:

Staves = Agility + Intelligence + fire/transmutation magic
Swords = Dexterity + Charisma +air/illusion magic
Cups = Strength + Perception + water/healing magic
Coins = Constitution + Wisdom + earth/protection magic

In the end I never used it (went with Brawn/Agility/Acumen/Intuition/Presence) but I explored it pretty far.

 

[Yaarel]

This reminds me of a version of my heartbreaker D&D in 2010 (heartbroken by 4e at the time) where each of the four « stats » had a physical and a mental component, copied from the attributes of Legends of the Five Rings (it would have been the 2nd or 3rd edition at that point).

Fire = Agility + Intelligence
Air = Reflexes + Awareness
Water = Strength + Perception
Earth = Stamina + Willpower

My adaptation was more Alchemy-oriented using Tarot suits as stats:

Staves = Agility + Intelligence + fire/transmutation magic
Swords = Dexterity + Charisma +air/illusion magic
Cups = Strength + Perception + water/healing magic
Coins = Constitution + Wisdom + earth/protection magic

In the end I never used it (went with Brawn/Agility/Acumen/Intuition/Presence) but I explored it pretty far.

That elementalist tarot theme is a cool approach.

I am wondering how it might relate to the deep four.

The elementalism is somehow both Intelligence (Nature) chemical states of matter (solid, liquid, gas, and plasma) and Charisma (Insight) psychological moods (something like yearning, mellow, euphoric, and aggressive).

I am color coding the mental abilities.

For the four, maybe something like?

	Attack/DC	Save/AC
Earth	STRENGTH	CONSTITUTION (FORTITUDE)
Air	DEXTERITY	ATHLETICS (REFLEX)
Water	INTELLIGENCE	PERCEPTION
Fire	CHARISMA	WISDOM (WILL)

The idea of each element including both a physical ability and mental ability is interesting.

	Attack/DC	Save/AC
Earth	STRENGTH	WISDOM (WILL)
Air	DEXTERITY	PERCEPTION
Water	INTELLIGENCE	ATHLETICS (REFLEX)
Fire	CHARISMA	CONSTITUTION (FORTITUDE)

(Note, I want to associated Athletic finesse with Intelligence, but it is difficult from me to associate Constitution force with Fire.)

 

[Laurefindel]

That elementalist tarot theme is a cool approach.

I am wondering how it might relate to the deep four.

The elementalism is somehow both Intelligence (Nature) chemical states of matter (solid, liquid, gas, and plasma) and Charisma (Insight) psychological moods (something like yearning, mellow, euphoric, and aggressive).

I am color coding the mental abilities.

For the four, maybe something like?

	Attack/DC	Save/AC
Earth	STRENGTH	CONSTITUTION (FORTITUDE)
Air	DEXTERITY	ATHLETICS (REFLEX)
Water	INTELLIGENCE	PERCEPTION
Fire	CHARISMA	WISDOM (WILL)

The idea of each element including both a physical ability and mental ability is interesting.

	Attack/DC	Save/AC
Earth	STRENGTH	WISDOM (WILL)
Air	DEXTERITY	PERCEPTION
Water	INTELLIGENCE	ATHLETICS (REFLEX)
Fire	CHARISMA	CONSTITUTION (FORTITUDE)

(Note, I want to associated Athletic finesse with Intelligence, but it is difficult from me to associate Constitution force with Fire.)

Looks like you’re pretty set on Strength, Dexterity (fine motor skills), Athletics (gross motor skills), Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, and Perception as ability scores.

The problem I ran into with Perception as a stat was that you then need another skill that equates to perception, like « roll a Perception-alertness check », at which point alertness just becomes the new king-of-all-skills.

Similarly, if Athletics becomes an ability score, what would the current Athletics skill become? What skill would be used to escape a villain example, or wrestle an opponent?