GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[Micah Sweet]

Even 1E technically had Intermediate Deities - they were just called Greater Deities who were not the Pantheon Heads.



I have 30* Divine Ranks, I just didn't list them all.

30 Divine Ranks sort of paralleled the 30 Challenge Ratings of the Core Rules.

*42 if we count my Hypothetical Deities.



My first 6 parallel the BECMI set, though I prefer the Hero/Quasi-deity nomenclature of AD&D. That's what D&D has largely used used since the 80's with the BECMI approach the anomaly - albeit meaning the same thing.



Notably after Greater Deity I have six extra tiers (each broken down into 4 ranks). Maybe the easiest parallel to yours is mapping your final six ranks onto my six higher tiers - rather than going one-for-one on individual ranks.

Though the reason we need those individual ranks is to promote interaction between characters/monsters - if you go up a full tier (4 ranks) its 'arguably' too big a difficulty spike. Not unbeatable, but highly improbable the PCs would defeat something +16 CR higher than them individually.

I really cannot wait for this book!

 

[dave2008]

30 Divine Ranks sort of paralleled the 30 Challenge Ratings of the Core Rules.

OK, so what you are calling ranks is more like levels in my system and what I call rank is more like tiers in tour system. I have 5 levels per rank so 50 levels total (in theory - there is nothing that has reached those levels). Each rank in my setting is a 10x jump in power. So, all things being equal, a greater deity is 10x more powerful than an intermediate deity and 100x more powerful than a lesser deity etc.

I was always making a 5e successor to the Immortals rules, that is why I went with those ranks / tiers that I did.

Immortals Player's Guide
Initiate is just a pseudo-level and each rank after has 5 levels.

Wrath of the Immortals (update to Immortals Rules). It added levels to Initiate rank (making them true immortals) and made each rank 6 levels. This makes 36 levels match the 36 mortal levels.

I'm splitting the difference: Giving the Initiate tier levels, but only 5 levels per rank.

 

[GreatestHonor]

No idea why it took so long for me to realize this, especially since you’ve brought up the idea of using these rules to make anime characters. I will enjoy making stats for the characters from Overlord.

 

[Upper_Krust]

It's interesting how you took a different approach buddy. However, how do you know each of your ranks is x10 better than the last? At first glance your Hierarch seems on par with my Quasi-deity...which is only equivalent to 3 epic characters.

Also wouldn't that mean your Rank 2 Balor is 100 times more powerful than an Epic Character? Your rank 4 Orcus = 10,000 characters. Your rank 6 Odin = 1,000,000 epic characters? Maybe I am missing something?

Each of my ranks is a x1.817 ish jump in power (in real terms) from the last. Simplified to x2, x3, x6, x10, x20, x30, x60, x100, etc.

On that scale Zeus/Odin (rank 6) is 'equal to'' x30 Epic Tier characters at CR 36.

 

[Upper_Krust]

No idea why it took so long for me to realize this, especially since you’ve brought up the idea of using these rules to make anime characters. I will enjoy making stats for the characters from Overlord.

I use Dragonball as the benchmark, but I have also factored things like Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo.

So you should be able to duplicate any character from Anime using this system.

The tiers are set up to scale to different levels of Collateral Damage: Atomic, Continental, Cosmic (Planetary/Stellar), Galactic, Universal, Multiversal, Meta...with hypothetical higher tiers of 'Meta-Meta' (where your characters would be battling WotC Game Designers before they can implement new Edition that would make your characters obsolete) etc. that I hint at but don't cover and would likely be too bizarre to fully conceptualize (though I may have a crack at some point in the future).

 

[dave2008]

It's interesting how you took a different approach buddy. However, how do you know each of your ranks is x10 better than the last?

Because you literally multiple everything* by 10. So an intermediate deity that throws a punch for 10d6 damage, the greater deity, with no other changes, is doing 10d6 x10 damage.

*not really everything, but things that deal with HP, damage, DR, healing, etc. To hit and defenses scale more lineally.

At first glance your Hierarch seems on par with my Quasi-deity...which is only equivalent to 3 epic characters.

Also wouldn't that mean your Rank 2 Balor is 100 times more powerful than an Epic Character? Your rank 4 Orcus = 10,000 characters. Your rank 6 Odin = 1,000,000 epic characters? Maybe I am missing something?

No, our scales are different. Epic characters, balors, pit fiends, solars, etc. don't even rate on my scale. They would be rank 0 I guess. In mine, a rank 1 immortal is roughly 10x as powerful CR 20 - 30 (WotC scale) monster. I am not really looking to make a clean progression from mortal to immortal. That threshold, and the threshold between ranks, is a big one! The intent is to do most of the play within your own rank. However, I have mechanisms to engage a rank or so up and down. So boundaries of influence are easily across 3 ranks (15 levels). Outside of that, the gulf is usually to big to be interesting (really just narrative at that point).

I do want to be clear and explain that I only have general concepts. I have kept them on the back burner until your book comes out. I want to see if there is a useful way to merge our ideas or if I prefer to just use your system as is.

 

[Alzrius]

No idea why it took so long for me to realize this, especially since you’ve brought up the idea of using these rules to make anime characters. I will enjoy making stats for the characters from Overlord.

I once did some "back of a napkin" calculations regarding the power levels in Overlord, and came to the conclusion that Ainz was somewhere around level 40.

Since you can see the influence of D&D 3.X on Overlord's magic system (particularly where "super-tier magic" is described to be beyond 10th-tier magic and also "more like a skill than a spell," which is a clear reference to 3E's epic spells), that can be used as a baseline. For instance, given that Ainz can use a total of four super-tier spells, that suggests that his total ranks in Knowledge (arcana) is between 40 and 49 ranks (since you can cast one epic spell per ten ranks in that skill).

Given that he's an arcane spellcaster, and so Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for him, and that characters can have maximum ranks equal to their level +3, that means that his total levels are between 37 and 46. I went with 40 because it gives us a relatively even metric to convert the levels on the various Overlord character sheets to 3.X D&D; just divide the former by 2.5 and you get the latter. (For instance, Lupusregina Beta is a level 59 character, which makes her (depending on how you round the remainder) either level 23 or 24 in 3.X D&D).

(Of course, Overlord characters use a combination of "racial levels" and "job levels," so the total level would be more like ECL than class levels.)

Did I mention I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the next lite novel in the series?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Because you literally multiple everything* by 10.

Ah okay.

So an intermediate deity that throws a punch for 10d6 damage, the greater deity, with no other changes, is doing 10d6 x10 damage.

So an Intermediate God could never fight a Greater God in your system?

*not really everything, but things that deal with HP, damage, DR, healing, etc. To hit and defenses scale more lineally.

No, our scales are different. Epic characters, balors, pit fiends, solars, etc. don't even rate on my scale. They would be rank 0 I guess. In mine, a rank 1 immortal is roughly 10x as powerful CR 20 - 30 (WotC scale) monster. I am not really looking to make a clean progression from mortal to immortal. That threshold, and the threshold between ranks, is a big one! The intent is to do most of the play within your own rank.

But doesn't that mean you alienate the other ranks and previous monsters from your own Immortals play and thus require infinitely more new monsters to actually 'flesh out' each rank?

However, I have mechanisms to engage a rank or so up and down. So boundaries of influence are easily across 3 ranks (15 levels). Outside of that, the gulf is usually to big to be interesting (really just narrative at that point)

Officially Epic characters have a history of battling Demon Lords and even Demon Princes. Do you not like that idea?

I do want to be clear and explain that I only have general concepts. I have kept them on the back burner until your book comes out. I want to see if there is a useful way to merge our ideas or if I prefer to just use your system as is.

Well I think the key difference is the immediate level of interaction. All the official monsters are still 'in play' with my system.

So an official Monster Manual Solar is roughly on par with an un-optimized Quasi-deity. Those Solars might be the 'Minions' you face as an Intermediate Deity - so it only makes sense to keep as many options around as possible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I once did some "back of a napkin" calculations regarding the power levels in Overlord, and came to the conclusion that Ainz was somewhere around level 40.

Since you can see the influence of D&D 3.X on Overlord's magic system (particularly where "super-tier magic" is described to be beyond 10th-tier magic and also "more like a skill than a spell," which is a clear reference to 3E's epic spells), that can be used as a baseline. For instance, given that Ainz can use a total of four super-tier spells, that suggests that his total ranks in Knowledge (arcana) is between 40 and 49 ranks (since you can cast one epic spell per ten ranks in that skill).

We have multiple ways to convert that character to my system. Levels do not increase beyond 20th in my system, but each Divine Rank (in game terms) is roughly +5-6 Levels. So Divine Rank 4 is approx. Level 40-44. Divine Rank 4 means a mortal caster that could cast 9th level spells would have 4 Epic Spells (without using Divine Boons) up to Level 13 spells. That puts him on par with a Demon Prince like Orcus.

...what is Ainz most powerful spell to see how it compares in my system?

Given that he's an arcane spellcaster, and so Knowledge (arcana) is a class skill for him, and that characters can have maximum ranks equal to their level +3, that means that his total levels are between 37 and 46. I went with 40 because it gives us a relatively even metric to convert the levels on the various Overlord character sheets to 3.X D&D; just divide the former by 2.5 and you get the latter. (For instance, Lupusregina Beta is a level 59 character, which makes her (depending on how you round the remainder) either level 23 or 24 in 3.X D&D).

A Level 59 character would translate to Divine Rank 6 or 7 maybe: DR 6 = Level 50-56, DR 7 = Level 55-62. Does that character have 7 Super Tier Magic spells perchance?

(Of course, Overlord characters use a combination of "racial levels" and "job levels," so the total level would be more like ECL than class levels.)

We could treat one as Epic Boons and the other as Divine Ranks.

Did I mention I'm eagerly awaiting the release of the next lite novel in the series?

Is anyone here following Solo Leveling?

Also dave, as regards Twilight of the Gods I thought it faded a bit in the last 4 episodes. Might still give the nod to Blood of Zeus...season 3 coming next week.

 

[Alzrius]

We have multiple ways to convert that character to my system. Levels do not increase beyond 20th in my system, but each Divine Rank (in game terms) is roughly +5-6 Levels. So Divine Rank 4 is approx. Level 40-44. Divine Rank 4 means a mortal caster that could cast 9th level spells would have 4 Epic Spells (without using Divine Boons) up to Level 13 spells. That puts him on par with a Demon Prince like Orcus.

...what is Ainz most powerful spell to see how it compares in my system?

We see him use a few super-tier spells in the series, but I'd wager that the strongest is Iä Shub-Niggurath:


The effect of this spell is two-fold. Upon completion of the spell, it instantly kills seventy thousand people (and their animals), and it's stated that their deaths are an "offering" that Shub-Niggurath responds to by sending her young. Specifically, five of the "Dark Young" monster (which Ainz states is the most ever summoned with a single casting of the spell, but also notes that killing that many people should have resulted in more being summoned, suggesting that the spell is capped at summoning five. My guess would be that one Dark Young is summoned per ten thousand people slain.)

As a note, the "What If" novel confirms that this spell can also kill the undead.

The Dark Young themselves are stated to be "over level 90" and to have little in the way of supernatural or magical powers, but their base stats are higher than would otherwise be expected for a monster of their level. So if we presume something like level 92, then if we divide that by 2.5 (for D&D 3.X, as per my previous post), that'd make them something like level 36 or 37 (I know that level and Challenge Rating aren't the same, but presumably this means that one of the Dark Young would be an appropriate challenge for a party of characters that are all level 36-37).

A Level 59 character would translate to Divine Rank 6 or 7 maybe: DR 6 = Level 50-56, DR 7 = Level 55-62. Does that character have 7 Super Tier Magic spells perchance?

I think you overlooked my note about the 3.X conversion, which would put Lugpusregina at level 23-24 in 3.X D&D.

EDIT: In hindsight, I didn't make it clear that Overlord uses its own level system, where characters can be anywhere from level 1 to level 100. Lupusregina is level 59 under their system, which using the 2.5 divisor I mentioned above, would make her level 23 or 24 in 3.X D&D.

We could treat one as Epic Boons and the other as Divine Ranks.

I'm curious how epic boons would equate to racial levels in your system (of course, the entire idea of "racial levels" has always been awkward in D&D; I suspect the closest equivalent was probably in Basic D&D with its races-as-classes presentation for demihumans. The monster levels in something like 3.0's Savage Species are probably a closer translation to what's in Overlord, but those had their own problems).

Is anyone here following Solo Leveling?

Don't get me started.