GOD RULES: Player's Guide (5e) Kickstarter Pre-Launch Page

[John98GR]

It's been a long time since I've watched DBZ, but I believe that the moon was actually destroyed by Master Roshi during the Tenkaichi Budokai (the first one that we see in the original Dragonball manga). The issue with Piccolo "destroying" it was, if I recall correctly, from a filler episode of the anime (where, I believe, it is supposedly a projection from the space capsule that originally brought Goku to that planet) and not in the actual manga.

It was stated by Kami (during the later episodes of original DB) that he brought it back after permanently removing Goku's tail. Also that is, if I remember correctly, the only time the show attempted to explain the status of the Moon with any kind of consistency.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Vegeta clearly didn't find the Moon and needed to use a technique to transform to an Oozaru.
I am terribly sorry for all the people out there that want to say otherwise, but Piccolo blasted the Moon. It was not a metaphorical Moon, it was not an illusionary Moon, it was the actual Moon. If it was otherwise, Vegeta would not need a Power Ball to go Oozaru.

Side-note: It was never stated in the original series that it was ever an illusion. A video game retconning this decades after the fact is another matter entirely. If you want to argue that, then I will back away. Do not expect me to take this statement seriously however when Roshi of all people can blow up the Moon in the Pre-Z era, but Piccolo somehow "cannot". It is the same retcon as the potara earrings not being 'permanent'. Before Super, all games and material by default considered the potara fusion permanent. If it was some sort of secret "lore", then I believe official games would do something about it.

I don't know enough about what was going on to say who is wrong or right on the matter. My general opinion would be to default back to the 'Space Cheese' excuse rather than have Piccolo jump from mere Kiloton power to Moon-shattering power within the span of two narrative episodes.

There is no narrative, authoritative, or even logical reason to state that Piccolo's most powerful attack at the time somehow has less power output than Master Roshi's Kamehameha in the original Dragon Ball series, which he intended to use it to kill Goku. We cannot argue in good faith and somehow pretend that Roshi had the potential to dish-out moves that are stronger than early DBZ. If that was the case, he would not need the Evil Containment Wave against King Piccolo (the older guy in original DB), and they should have asked him instead to kill Raditz.

I agree with you, BUT that leaves us with contradictory evidence and at that stage characters having Kiloton level power is much more plausible and (AFAIK) fits more of the evidence than somehow having Moon-busting power but (for no apparent reason) holding back.

Let me ask you this, from the time Piccolo destroyed the Moon has every subsequent attack of his (in anger) blown up half the planet he was fighting on...or been even more destructive? If not (and I don't know what the answer is), we can clearly dismiss the Moon showing as 'Space Cheese'.

 

[John98GR]

I don't know enough about what was going on to say who is wrong or right on the matter. My general opinion would be to default back to the 'Space Cheese' excuse rather than have Piccolo jump from mere Kiloton power to Moon-shattering power within the span of two narrative episodes.



I agree with you, BUT that leaves us with contradictory evidence and at that stage characters having Kiloton level power is much more plausible and (AFAIK) fits more of the evidence than somehow having Moon-busting power but (for no apparent reason) holding back.

Let me ask you this, from the time Piccolo destroyed the Moon has every subsequent attack of his (in anger) blown up half the planet he was fighting on...or been even more destructive? If not (and I don't know what the answer is), we can clearly dismiss the Moon showing as 'Space Cheese'.

I perfectly agree with your point of view, what slights me is people misinterpreting inconsistent and bad writing retconned years later as somehow "always that way all along".
DBZ Fighters being toned down to "realistic" levels is not something that bothers me.

 

[FleshEatingBlackFlutterby]

Air breathing characters in DBZ are frequently shown as holding back on Earth itself just to avoid suiciding themselves.
I also think in their universe, the laws of physics are different. Inanimate objects are regularly shown as being far easier to destroy or even lift (Piccolo vs. a huge pyramid for example) than they should be, even if it is inconsistent.
In some instances 'toon physics might even apply.

 

[Alzrius]

Honestly, I think the real problem is that D&D doesn't have anything that approximates large-scale area damage. Everything is written at the tactical level, and is carefully outlined to either be individually-targeted or only affecting a very small area. Even as a collateral effect, the properties of being able to cause destruction on a large scale simply aren't acknowledged by the system.

 

[John98GR]

Honestly, I think the real problem is that D&D doesn't have anything that approximates large-scale area damage. Everything is written at the tactical level, and is carefully outlined to either be individually-targeted or only affecting a very small area. Even as a collateral effect, the properties of being able to cause destruction on a large scale simply aren't acknowledged by the system.

The only "legal" (and 100% unintended) mass devastation spell that comes to mind is an extremely watered down Locate City bomb (Snowcasting -> Flash Frost -> Energy Admixture -> Maybe toss one more Metamagic -> 9th Spell) for ~50 energy damage over ~200 miles, in 3.5e anyway.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I perfectly agree with your point of view, what slights me is people misinterpreting inconsistent and bad writing retconned years later as somehow "always that way all along".

Outliers are very common in all such discussions. But they are not something I would hang any Verse framework upon.

DBZ Fighters being toned down to "realistic" levels is not something that bothers me.

If course my system doesn't need to tone anything down. So you can pick any interpretation you want amigo.

My preference for these sort of things is to take the most logical and consistent approach. Outliers are treated as such. At no point in the Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz fight was anything remotely close to Moon-busting level shown with multiple examples of Collateral damage. Ergo that cannot logically be their power levels.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Air breathing characters in DBZ are frequently shown as holding back on Earth itself just to avoid suiciding themselves.
I also think in their universe, the laws of physics are different. Inanimate objects are regularly shown as being far easier to destroy or even lift (Piccolo vs. a huge pyramid for example) than they should be, even if it is inconsistent.
In some instances 'toon physics might even apply.

That's a fairly common trope in comic books as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Honestly, I think the real problem is that D&D doesn't have anything that approximates large-scale area damage. Everything is written at the tactical level, and is carefully outlined to either be individually-targeted or only affecting a very small area. Even as a collateral effect, the properties of being able to cause destruction on a large scale simply aren't acknowledged by the system.

Once you crack the matrix that is 5e D&D damage the whole thing scales into place. Of course it might seem weird at first that a planet only has 5000 HP or whatever, but with Damage Threshold and Gravitational Regeneration you won't be blowing one up until you are ready to.

 

[dave2008]

Vegeta clearly didn't find the Moon and needed to use a technique to transform to an Oozaru.
I am terribly sorry for all the people out there that want to say otherwise, but Piccolo blasted the Moon. It was not a metaphorical Moon, it was not an illusionary Moon, it was the actual Moon. If it was otherwise, Vegeta would not need a Power Ball to go Oozaru.

Side-note: It was never stated in the original series that it was ever an illusion. A video game retconning this decades after the fact is another matter entirely. If you want to argue that, then I will back away. Do not expect me to take this statement seriously however when Roshi of all people can blow up the Moon in the Pre-Z era, but Piccolo somehow "cannot". It is the same retcon as the potara earrings not being 'permanent'. Before Super, all games and material by default considered the potara fusion permanent. If it was some sort of secret "lore", then I believe official games would do something about it.

There is no narrative, authoritative, or even logical reason to state that Piccolo's most powerful attack at the time somehow has less power output than Master Roshi's Kamehameha in the original Dragon Ball series, which he intended to use it to kill Goku. We cannot argue in good faith and somehow pretend that Roshi had the potential to dish-out moves that are stronger than early DBZ. If that was the case, he would not need the Evil Containment Wave against King Piccolo (the older guy in original DB), and they should have asked him instead to kill Raditz.

I think it is a mistake to think DB, DBZ, DBGT, etc. have consistent and logical power scaling. It was a tv show for entertainment purposes first and foremost.