D&D 5E 5e Psion+++++thread

[EzekielRaiden]

Having struggled with making magic and psionics feel sufficiently different for a couple decades, the conclusion I've come to is this: to carve out a niche for psionics, you have to pare back what magic can accomplish.

You can't have a list of 300 spells per spell level and expect psionics to feel different. If magic can do everything, then psionics will always be overshadowed.

Just another massive boon for creating distinct psionics.

Spellcasting needs to be pared back. Not infinitely far. But 5e simply did not go far enough in toning down the magic system of 3rd edition.

 

[Corinnguard]

Spellcasting needs to be pared back. Not infinitely far. But 5e simply did not go far enough in toning down the magic system of 3rd edition.

Tone down as in the number of spells? 3rd edition certainly had too many of them, both officially and via 3pp (along with feats, but that's another story for another thread). One problem with too many spells in any edition is that you are bound to run into a spell that's essentially a rehash of a previous spell. It does the same things as that previous spell. The new spell same as the old spell. Just the upgrade the old spell and leave it at that while keeping the number of spells at a reasonable level (whatever that might be).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Tone down as in the number of spells? 3rd edition certainly had too many of them, both officially and via 3pp (along with feats, but that's another story for another thread). One problem with too many spells in any edition is that you are bound to run into a spell that's essentially a rehash of a previous spell. It does the same things as that previous spell. The new spell same as the old spell. Just the upgrade the old spell and leave it at that while keeping the number of spells at a reasonable level (whatever that might be).

Number and breadth. Spellcasters are still quite capable of being generically strong with only a relatively limited number of spells, and now that 5.5e is out, Wizards literally are Batman Wizards where they need only an hour to have any spell they know ready to use.

 

[Steampunkette]

Eh... You can have 300+ spells and still have Psions feel different in their own way.

You just need to create a different mechanical structure for the use of powers, rather than just making them "More Spells" or "Borrow Spells from Wizard and call it powers"

The Esper did not take me two decades. It took me less than 6 months of actual effort put toward that goal. Though I did stand on the shoulders of Mearls and KibblesTasty as they both created something that was almost there.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ok, hopefully five plus signs is enough, lol. I still have PTSD from the big thread a few years back (2022? Damn time sure flies)!

The main problem with Psionics is that, like a lot of things, people have different ideas about what Psionics is, should be, and whether or not it really has any place in D&D today. Most people don't feel the need for another magic system (even if it is magic-adjacent). Others feel there are third party products that work just fine (call out to Steampunkette, check out her work today!). And still others feel that all you need is some Psionic flavoring on an existing class, and feel that, say, a Great Old One Warlock is perfectly acceptable.

But since CleverNickName asked in another thread (and asked that it be taken to another thread) what I'd call a Psion, here goes. I don't have any specifics on mechanics, but here are some concepts I'd like to see.

1) NO SPELL SLOTS. I don't mind there being a limitation on how often one can use their abilities, but this is one I'd rather not see. I'd rather not track anything as fiddly as "psionic points", but that might be the easiest way. Optimally, powers would cause "strain". One thing I'm working on for a non-D&D game system right now is using something like temporary hit points as a battery for powers- you can convert regular hit points into temps with one ability, then use those temps to fuel your psionics. Sure, you can be healed later, but with a limit on how often you can create temps. The big problem with this system so far? Other sources of temporary hit points.

The main thing I'm going with here is representing the idea that psionic powers are not something normal humanoid brains are wired to do, so you are doing mental damage to yourself when employing them.

2) Psionic powers are just that, more like super powers than spells. If you're a Telekinetic, you can perform feats of telekinesis on demand, with a myriad of different things you can do with them. Thus they are more versatile in their application than a spell tends to be. For examples, a telekinetic could learn how to:

-Lift and move objects at a distance.

-Wield a weapon telekinetically.

-Slow or even stop attacks they can see.

-Levitate or even fly.

-Telekinetically "punch" someone.

-Darth Vader style Force Chokes.

One power that does all these things is obviously pretty potent, so perhaps you'd have a base, let's call it a Science called Telekinesis. As you level up, you can select sub-abilities (Devotions) for any of the above things you'd want to do (with level based requirements). You'd always have a basic ability, similar in power to Mage Hand or the Telekinetic Feat that you can call upon and perhaps start with one Devotion.

3) Magic-Psionics Opaqueness. Not transparency, in that effects of both abilities pass each other in the night, but something that mechanically represents how foreign and strange Psionics is compared to traditional forms of magic. A magical defense can protect against a psionic one and vice versa, but less effectively than normal. This of course requires some balancing, as while many creatures exist with defenses against magic, none have protection against psionics specifically, and you don't want to let a psionic character feel overpowered. Just different.

4) Specialization, specialization, specialization! While you can branch out over time, I feel that you shouldn't be picking from a grab bag of different powers (with one exception I'll discuss below). If you're a Firestarter, you start fires. If you're a Telepath, you read and influence minds. So on and so forth.

5) Wild Talents. One thing I truly enjoyed from earlier editions was the idea that anyone could develop their latent psionic potential, but what abilities gained are essentially random. A Wild Talent could be one of the following:

-the Psion's answer to the Sorcerer (Wilder?).

-a special Feat that grants some psionic potential.

-a psionic Wild Talent subclass (hard to do without unified subclass progression, so several would have to be made), where your subclass abilities give you access to different psionic abilities.

What powers you gain would be randomly determined, unless the DM allows you to choose a specific power (on their own head be it, but I can understand not being thrilled with having the super amazing power to hear light or see sound).

6) Psionic components. There's something that shows you are manifesting powers. An intense stare, the "standard telepath pose", ie, fingers to forehead. Nosebleeds (caused by strain). Focusing on crystals, showstones, or other implements. Murmuring mantras. These are unique to the individual, but being able to fully conceal your powers is something only master mentalists should be able to do.

7) Psionic items. Objects that have unique psionic resonance or have been imbued with a sliver of consciousness, thus being the psion equivalent of magic items.

8) Psionic heritages. Obviously, some species have evolved that can use some psionics- Derro, Duergar, Goblin "Blues", Elan, Maenads, and so on.

9) Psionic creatures. If your world has psionics, then it must have psionic threats. A template can be created to quickly make psychic ogres or orcs, but obviously some specific creatures should have psionic abilities (the Mind Flayer being a classic).

That's about it for now.

I wonder, if strain or HP as a resource aren’t options, would you be down for using the Monk as a model? Specifically the 2024 Monk.

So, you can

• send a telepathic message and receive a reply as a bonus action for free, or spend focus to make a link or read surface thoughts/emotions.
• Move light objects around as a bonus action free, and spend Focus to move bigger stuff or multiple objects at once
• Make attacks with objects or psionic force at-will, and extend range and increase damage by spending focus.
• Ideally some sort of energy manipulation, not sure what the best at-will use would be. Maybe changing damage types or disrupting caster concentration/spellcasting. I’d love for psionics to have more ability to disrupt magic than the other way around, but Magic has more of the out there effects than psionics.

Then you’d have Talents to choose from that expand this, allowing you to do things like create kinetic fields, add psychic or force damage to weapon attacks of allies, and the less common psychic stuff like fire starting, divination, spirit medium work, etc, and subclasses to specialize and create strong archetypes.

Maybe have a “wild surge” mechanic when you spend focus to do psionics, and you can spend HP to ignore that mechanic for a specific casting, or just a “spend HD to regain Focus” mechanic.

I think this would be compatible with your goals while also being easy to jump into but satisfyingly complex to master.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I wonder, if strain or HP as a resource aren’t options, would you be down for using the Monk as a model? Specifically the 2024 Monk.

So, you can

• send a telepathic message and receive a reply as a bonus action for free, or spend focus to make a link or read surface thoughts/emotions.
• Move light objects around as a bonus action free, and spend Focus to move bigger stuff or multiple objects at once
• Make attacks with objects or psionic force at-will, and extend range and increase damage by spending focus.
• Ideally some sort of energy manipulation, not sure what the best at-will use would be. Maybe changing damage types or disrupting caster concentration/spellcasting. I’d love for psionics to have more ability to disrupt magic than the other way around, but Magic has more of the out there effects than psionics.

Then you’d have Talents to choose from that expand this, allowing you to do things like create kinetic fields, add psychic or force damage to weapon attacks of allies, and the less common psychic stuff like fire starting, divination, spirit medium work, etc, and subclasses to specialize and create strong archetypes.

Maybe have a “wild surge” mechanic when you spend focus to do psionics, and you can spend HP to ignore that mechanic for a specific casting, or just a “spend HD to regain Focus” mechanic.

I think this would be compatible with your goals while also being easy to jump into but satisfyingly complex to master.

That is basically what those other psions that focus on devotions do. You start off with a few Disciplines that feels like a cantrip ability and then you spend your points to make it more powerful, or change it in some way.

 

[Dragonhelm]

I think you hit on my main objection to what's been presented for Psionics in 5e - it's basically just re-flavored magic, and that's not how psionics were presented in past editions.

That's not entirely true. In the Expanded Psionics Handbook of 3.5, there was something like 42 powers that were just psionic versions of spells.

EDIT: If I've quoted that before, I apologize. I didn't realize this post wasn't recent.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That is basically what those other psions that focus on devotions do. You start off with a few Disciplines that feels like a cantrip ability and then you spend your points to make it more powerful, or change it in some way.

In the same way that spell like abilities are basically spells, sure.

It doesn’t have to be presented in the same way, and the presentation matters.

presenting it like the monk’s Focus features gives the impression of foundational class features that give you new actions you can always do, and some open ended ways to do them even better, rather than making them feel and look like spells.

 

[TiQuinn]

That's not entirely true. In the Expanded Psionics Handbook of 3.5, there was something like 42 powers that were just psionic versions of spells.

EDIT: If I've quoted that before, I apologize. I didn't realize this post wasn't recent.

Okay, then my preference is a version of psionics that feel distinct in function from spells, more akin to 2e.

 

[Yaarel]

Okay, then my preference is a version of psionics that feel distinct in function from spells, more akin to 2e.

Heh, most of the people playing D&D today werent even alive during 2e. One might as well be asking them to play an ancient precursor to the game of chess.