D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[pemerton]

A freeway bypass is a road that lets you avoid a town. The town is never encountered. That's what bypass means. To pass or go around something.

But the town exists.

When the encounter is "bypassed", where does it "exist"? What road did the players divert from, so as to "bypass" it?

If the group takes route number 2 from A to B because there are multiple routes, and never encounters the bandits on the road of route number 1, they did in fact bypass that encounter. They went around it.

Where does route no 1, and the bandits on it, "exist"?

I see two possible answers: in the GM's notes; or in the GM's imagination.

 

[pemerton]

The very fact that every version of D&D has included an experience table, with actual amounts per level, says that individual experience is still on the table (as it were).

4e D&D has an experience table with amounts per level, but expressly states that XP is not allocated on an individual basis. It is accrued at the party level, and then divvied up.

 

[Lanefan]

In casual talk, with my table, bypassing refers to combat or dangerous exploration encounters (you could throw traps in here) while missed is used to refer to social and exploration that pose no danger.

i.e. you guys missed chatting to x at the Social Encounter Tavern or missed the opportunity to enquire about y at the Investigative Library.

EDIT: So the word bypassed is used to avoid danger, while missed describes missed opportunities.

And if-when it matters, you might get xp for something bypassed but you'll never get any for something missed.

 

[Lanefan]

I tend to think most players, match the energy of the group or table they're at.

If the GM is half-assed fair, runs a decent game consistently and the table is inviting, competitive or not, I could see myself enjoy it. In Lanefan's games the strong theme is survivability with multiple perishable characters but the idea is still to have fun at the table.

Indeed; and as the characters advance in level they tend to become somewhat less perishable; they die less often and when they do, revival effects are more available and-or affordable.

There must be some magic happening to have a long-standing group like that. If they were only looking out for themselves the idea of a party wouldn't be able to function. And that would have come out in the wash years ago.

The key is to have what happens in character stay in character. I've had parties blow up in huge arguments and spell-fights and shenanigans, and while the players took it seriously enough to play their characters true, they didn't hold anything against each other out-of-game (well, other than maybe a joking "I'm gonna get you next time!" here and there) and often spent much of the session laughing their damn-fool heads off.

And a character driven out of one party can often find a place in another.

 

[Lanefan]

Who are you arguing with? I already posted this multiple times upthread.

But talking to people won't earn you XP in the AD&D rules, unless you get treasure from them as a result of that talking.

Actually it might, under the aegis of "outwitting" them; e.g. if you talk your way past the guards rather than fight them.

 

[pemerton]

Actually it might, under the aegis of "outwitting" them; e.g. if you talk your way past the guards rather than fight them.

There is no XP for "outwitting" if that doesn't yield treasure.

From the PHB p 106, and the DMG pp 84-5:

the Dungeon Master will award experience points to the character for treasure gained and opponents captured or slain and for solving or overcoming problems through professional means. . . .

As a rule, one point of experience will be awarded for one gold piece gained by a character, with copper pieces, silver pieces, electrum pieces, platinum pieces, gems, jewelry, and like treasure being converted to a gold piece value. Magic items gained and retained have only a low experience point value, for they benefit the character through their use. Magic items gained and sold immediately are treated as gold pieces, the selling price bringing an award in experience on the stated one for one basis. Experience points awarded for treasure gained - monetary or magical - are modified downward if the guardian of the treasure (whether a monster, device, or obstacle, such as a secret door or maze) was generally weaker than the character who overcame it.

Monsters captured or slain always bring a full experience point award. Captured monsters ransomed or sold bring a gold piece: experience point ratio award. Monsters slain gain a set point award.

***​

The judgment factor is inescapable with respect to weighting experience for the points gained from slaying monsters and/or gaining treasure. You must weigh the level of challenge - be it thinking or fighting - versus the level of experience of the player character(s) who gained it. . . .

Tricking or outwitting monsters or overcoming tricks and/or traps placed to guard treasure must be determined subjectively, with level of experience balanced against the degree of difficulty you assign to the gaining of the treasure. . . .

Convert all metal and gems and jewelry to a total value in gold pieces. If the relative value of the monster(s) or guardian device
fought equals or exceeds that of the party which took the treasure, experience is awarded on a 1 for 1 basis. If the guardian(s) was relatively weaker, award experience on a 5 g.p. to 4 x.P., 3 to 2,2 to 1,3 to 1, or even 4 or more to 1 basis according to the relative strengths. . . .

Treasure must be physically taken out of the dungeon or lair and turned into a transportable medium or stored in the player's stronghold to be counted for experience points.

All items (including magic) or creatures sold for gold pieces prior to the awarding of experience points for an adventure must be considered as treasure taken, and the gold pieces received for the sale add to the total treasure taken. (Those magic items not sold gain only a relatively small amount of experience points, for their value is in their usage.)​

There are two sources of XP: treasure, and creatures slain or captured. Treasure XP is weighted by the difficulty of obtaining it, be that via fighting or outwitting or avoiding a trap or whatever. Creature XP is based on the strength of the creature; or, if sold/ransomed, on the money received.

There is no separate XP award just for outwitting people to no end.

 

[pemerton]

it seems the opposite to me, if the game is being driven by the gm then how would events ever not turn out how they are expecting?

Unless the GM is literally telling the players what their PCs do at every point, it seems likely that some things may occur in the fiction that the GM did not anticipate.

I'm using "GM-driven" to characterise a tendency or a matter of degree.

the players drive things, however it is the GM's very purpose to construct the world and try predict and plan for the things the players are going to do and encounter and prepare them

Again, to me this appears to be describing very GM-driven/GM-centred play.

So if you hear about a traffic jam on the radio and take an alternate route, meaning you’re never stuck in it, you didn’t bypass the jam? Seriously?

The traffic jam is an actual event that actually exists.

But where do these "bypassed encounters" exist?

this whole “it only exists in your mind” nonsense has to stop, because every single thing in an RPG only exists in the mind of the people at the table. Character sheets and minis, if you use them, are just physical representations of the ideas in your mind.

My point is that the "bypassed encounter" appears to exist only in the GM's mind or the GM's notes. Hence why, to me, the whole language of "bypassed encounters" appears to assume a GM-centric approach to play.

 

[AnotherGuy]

The picture I have, following these posts, is that those bypassed encounters were ones that you had prepped, and were ready to "spring" on the players if the fictional context was appropriate, but the players did things which meant that the fictional context wasn't appropriate and hence the prepped encounters were never "activated".

That is exactly right.

 

[pemerton]

And literally all I’ve been saying is, the PCs see tracks, which is what AW says to do, and the PCs go the other way, which is their choice.

To the way I read it—and have read it in multiple PbtA games—your interpretation is wrong. You’re not supposed to prep plots, but saying that something or someone, even a named NPC, made tracks, is what you’re supposed to do.

You said that, if the players choose to have their PCs ignore or not follow the tracks, there is an encounter that they have bypassed.

@Campbell, @hawkeyefan and I have all replied that this is not how we think when adjudicating a "don't prep plots", player-driven RPG.

If the GM tells the players who made the tracks, great! "The tracks look like those of the giant Grom." This doesn't change the fact that, if the players have their PCs do something other than follow the tracks, they are bypassing an encounter with Grom. Nothing "exists" to be bypassed.

 

[AnotherGuy]

And if-when it matters, you might get xp for something bypassed but you'll never get any for something missed.

That is fair, if we were using an XP system, we'd follow this guidance.