TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

@Sacrosanct
Terrific observations. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I too think the primary reason AD&D is so loved is because it's Gary's timeless vision of what D&D is.

Castles & Crusades, Hyperborea, Adventures Dark & Deep, Dragonslayer, and OSRIC all market themselves on how they're version is "Gary's version" first and foremost; the mechanics come second, if at all.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


@Sacrosanct
Terrific observations. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I too think the primary reason AD&D is so loved is because it's Gary's timeless vision of what D&D is.

Castles & Crusades, Hyperborea, Adventures Dark & Deep, Dragonslayer, and OSRIC all market themselves on how they're version is "Gary's version" first and foremost; the mechanics come second, if at all.
Hyperborea, really? That's incredible to me. Right up front that one makes substantial changes to races and classes to better suit its own setting and to fix/replace multiclassing (respectively), which is the furthest thing from trying to be purist about Gary's vision or the mechanics coming second, if at all.
 

I didn’t start playing until 1990, so I have zero nostalgia for 1e. But I would definitely consider picking up a thoughtful, thorough 2e retro clone.
 

Why would anyone still play full 1e when 2e is right there? 1e is painful by comparison. Again, I say this as a fan! But let's be real...

...So what does 1e have that 2e doesn't?
  • Aesthetic: Trampier, Otis, etc. I get this, because I prefer the art of 1e more than 2e, but I don't think it's a reason to stick with 1e rules...
  • ...Nostalgia. This one I get, because I love me some good nostalgia.
For me: This.

DIGRESSION: Your question has me realize I'd love to have (and play from) the text/rules of a 2e PHB, but reformatted into the form of the 1e PHB - with the 1e PHB's art, typesetting, etc. It'd be brilliant!

I have the official pdf reprints of both. If only I had either the time or editing skills to combine them.
Perhaps this could be a good (bad) use of AI?
 
Last edited:

For AD&D with its reverse bell curve stat mechanics and class prerequisites I prefer the 1e higher stat generation methods over 2e’s method I 3d6 down the line.
At the same time, 2e included all but the most broken stat generation methods 1E and 1.5 had in the book as methods. I know 2e called 3d6 the default, but at this point in my life, I just can't get behind an optional vs. non-optional dichotomy. They included said rule in the rulebook, but did/didn't suggest you should always follow it -- what exactly does this supposedly prove? I certainly don't remember more 2e groups feeling beholden to that default than 1e groups. That and, by now, everyone is using the rules they think optimal.
The journey towards bardhood can be just as much fun as achieving it.

I played in a short lived 2e game where I convinced the GM to let me play a 1e bard. The campaign never went anywhere, but while it lasted I had much more fun playing a 1st level fighter who considered himself an apprentice bard than I would have had playing a 2e bard.
I think this highlights an important point. If you take specific X (1E bard or ranger, BECM elf, AD&D weapon charts, xp=gp) the games end up playing out very much the same -- which is to say, most people used half the rules, ported half the rest over from other versions, and mixed in a massive amount of group-specific house rules or playstyle changes. Oftentimes without even knowing it. Case in point:
  • I believe chance to know rolls were removed
Not the case. Per 2e PHB p.16, chance to learn spell is alive and well and matches 1e up to a score of 19. It's possible that you remember it that way because your 2e DM simply didn't use the rule (and also didn't when they were playing 1e, if they ever did).

Generally my point is that we talk now, well after the (initial) fact, about little nuances like default attribute or XP rules, whether 1e bards (that weren't played much) were better than 2e bards (that were still pretty infrequent*), or similar. These are all important points to the discussion of which one any of us might generally prefer. However, I don't think (so, let's be clear, IMO) it really answers why anyone would play one over the other or why OP sees so much more 1e than 2e in the osr discussion.
*as they couldn't actually replace the thief class, so you needed 2 people interested in playing rogue-ish characters

To that, I think this might be an important point.
There are many reasons why people would want to play 1E.

If one is considering 1E for play though, the most practical question one can ask themselves is not dissimilar to the one that can be posed for any edition.

"Do I want to play with those who want to play 1E?"

If your actual preferences differ from the preferences of the players you are able to recruit, you'd be fighting an uphill battle. I prefer serious names, acting in first person, and other things. There are vocal segments in the 1E community that do not want these same things in their games. 2E, on the other hand, still seems to be less opinionated on the matter. Something to consider.
I don't actually know that I agree with this 1E/2E distinction, but I readily agree that there are people who are/have been 1E people*, and those who decisively made the switch to (/started with) 2E.
*who might have played 2E in '89-whenever, but then re-gravitated to a self-image as a 1E player

The categorical distinction I consider most convincing is that the 2e people were more likely to have gone on to 3.0 and maybe further. Thus, when they started exploring the OSR, were less likely to have had their AD&D mindframe sitting on the back burner the whole time. I think a lot of them then said, 'sure, let's strip this back to bare bones while we're re-exploring this general notion' and ended up associated with one of the BX-derived games.
 

The categorical distinction I consider most convincing is that the 2e people were more likely to have gone on to 3.0 and maybe further. Thus, when they started exploring the OSR, were less likely to have had their AD&D mindframe sitting on the back burner the whole time. I think a lot of them then said, 'sure, let's strip this back to bare bones while we're re-exploring this general notion' and ended up associated with one of the BX-derived games.
I feel seen! :)
 

So what does 1e have that 2e doesn't?
  • Aesthetic: Trampier, Otis, etc. I get this, because I prefer the art of 1e more than 2e, but I don't think it's a reason to stick with 1e rules.
  • Gary wrote 1e, Lorraine was in charge of 2e. Weird reason, because Gary and Lorraine don't game at your tables. Pretty sure they don't care which rules you are using. (also, Lorraine didn't design 2e, Zeb Cook did, who is regarded as one of the best designers of all time--look at his portfolio).
  • Devils and demons and assassins and half orcs. Yeah, 2e was sanitized, but it's super easy to use demons and devils in a 2e campaign. Why you would use 1e rules just for this reason is kinda weird.
  • Classic modules. 2e was designed intentionally to be backwards compatible. You can run 1e modules without conversion in a 2e game.
  • Nostalgia. This one I get, because I love me some good nostalgia.
XP from gold piece gain is a huge one.
Unlimited spell scaling. 2e caps fireball at 10d6 and magic missiles at 5 for example.
 

Generally my point is that we talk now, well after the (initial) fact, about little nuances like default attribute or XP rules, whether 1e bards (that weren't played much) were better than 2e bards (that were still pretty infrequent*), or similar. These are all important points to the discussion of which one any of us might generally prefer. However, I don't think (so, let's be clear, IMO) it really answers why anyone would play one over the other or why OP sees so much more 1e than 2e in the osr discussion.
No, these aren't things I think about only in retrospect, but are things I have actually thought about when actively deciding which games to play and all my opinions have formed after I had access to both games. In fact, it is probably safe to say that I am an utterly atypical example, which your model is completely unprepared to deal with. ;)

Other than a handful of sessions of BECMI Basic and some very brief dalliances with 2e, I completely ignored D&D in all forms for my first 15 years in the hobby. I then jumped on 3e at the time of it's release, and this was the first time I ever gave D&D a fair shake. I gave 4e a spin and then, around 2010, I decided I wanted to give this dungeon crawling thing a go. Pretty much all my current opinions about 1e, 2e and B/X have been formed in the last 15 years, at a time when I have been able to compare and contrast all three, with no interference from nostalgia or previous ideas about how the game worked. I have no nostalgia for D&D and no misconceptions based on distant memories, because I grew up in the hobby as a Rolemaster snob who thought D&D was mostly for inane hack-and-slash gaming with nonsense dungeons and rooms full of monsters and treasure.

My opinion on bards, specifically, was formed in the mid-90s, when a friend wanted to run some 2e and I had played neither 1e nor 2e yet. I had, however, read the 1e PHB and thought bards were evocative and great, while simultaneously having zero interest in the 2e version. If the DM at the time had said 1e bards were off the table, I would not have a played a 2e bard, but something else entirely.

As an aside, I think 1 minute rounds are great, too, and should have been kept (despite the fact that the 1 minute round and dungeon movement rates were things I mocked in the 80s and 90s).
 

I just think in practical purposes, they were awful mechanically. Not just because it's highly unlikely you were rolled at least three 15s, a 12, and an 10, but at bare minimum, you couldn't start being a bard until you were level 11. And most people didn't play to that level.
You had to be a 5th level fighter(18k xp) and a 5th level thief(10k xp), so 28k xp total. Even if you were single class only, neither of those two classes would be anywhere near 11th level. Thief being the easiest class in the game to level would only be level 6 with 28k xp. So while the levels would total 11, 5/5/1, they really wouldn't be 11th level with regard to what level people played to. They'd reach bard when the other classes(except thief) in the party were 5th level, which pretty much every game played to if they didn't die/TPK first.

Interestingly, bards can be human or half-elf, but require you to be a character with two classes and not multiclassed, and only humans can do that. You also have the stat requirements off by a little. It's not three 15s, a 12 and a 10. It's two 15s, a 17-18 strength, a 12 and a 10. To switch classes you had to have a 17 or 18 in the original class, which had to start as a fighter.
 

Remove ads

Top