TSR Why would anyone want to play 1e?

[SableWyvern]

You had to be a 5th level fighter(18k xp) and a 5th level thief(10k xp), so 28k xp total. Even if you were single class only, neither of those two classes would be anywhere near 11th level. Thief being the easiest class in the game to level would only be level 6 with 28k xp. So while the levels would total 11, 5/5/1, they really wouldn't be 11th level with regard to what level people played to. They'd reach bard when the other classes(except thief) in the party were 5th level, which pretty much every game played to if they didn't die/TPK first.

Yep. If one fighter stays a fighter and another fighter dual classes to druid, at exactly the same XP, assuming they continue to accrue XP at the same rate, when the dual classing character qualifies for druid, the other fighter will only have gained a single level.

 

[Maxperson]

So I understand, a huge reason you played 1e was just to see if you could reach level 11 and be a bard?

I think I'm misunderstanding, because most people I've seen, known, and heard about played 1e and moved to different campaigns, adventures and characters long before level 11 was reached. It wasn't really a consideration to play the game just to see if you could make it to high level. In fact, IIRC, the various poll have put the sweet spot of 1e to be between levels 4-9 or so.

A level 9 fighter has 250k xp. A fighter 5/thief 5/bard 10 has earned 250k xp. The barrier to being a bard wasn't level. The barrier was the high stats required, and having to start over at level 1 three times, being unable to use prior class abilities(except hit points) until you exceed the former class(s).

 

[Maxperson]

Yep. If one fighter stays a fighter and another fighter dual classes to druid, at exactly the same XP, assuming they continue to accrue XP at the same rate, when the dual classing character qualifies for druid, the other fighter will only have gained a single level.

If that second fighter switched to thief, he'd reach level 5 as a thief while the first fighter is still level 5 as a fighter. So he'd be a bard before his fighter friend reached level 6.

 

[SableWyvern]

If that second fighter switched to thief, he'd reach level 5 as a thief while the first fighter is still level 5 as a fighter. So he'd be a bard before his fighter friend reached level 6.

Right you are. Exponential XP scaling was a great feature of all pre-3e editions, IMO.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

D&D General Thread 'Rulings, not Rules: How Will You Solve the Bard / Half Elf Dilemma?'

May 4, 2021

So another thread has gone by wherein we all marveled at the clarity and interoperability of the 1e Gygaxian Ruleset, each of us remarking, "Those rules are as clear as an unmuddied stream; verily, the rules are as easy to apply as soft butter on a hot griddle!"

Unfortunately, we did manage to find one rule that didn't quite click. So I did a quick canvas of this site (some of the history) and some other hidden places where grognards congregate before spawning* to see how other people dealt with the rule in question, so that I could present this as a poll.

*Grognards spawn by telling...

• Snarf Zagyg
• Replies: 89
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

D&D General Thread 'How to Read a Rule: Dueling Canons in D&D'

Sep 8, 2023

A recent thread on first level Magic Users in AD&D (1e) ended up meandering, as threads are wont to do, into discussing various opaque rules from the Gygaxian era and the "officialness" of Sage Advice from that time. Oh, we also discussed how to best serve Bards ... my suggestion? Medium Rarye.

Anyway, the whole thing started me thinking about the general idea of how we interpret rules, and how we use different authorities when interpreting rules. Unfortunately for you, when I have a thought, I am forced to expound upon that thought with all the prolixity of a legal code ...

• Snarf Zagyg
• Replies: 46
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

 

[Maxperson]

D&D General Thread 'Rulings, not Rules: How Will You Solve the Bard / Half Elf Dilemma?'

May 4, 2021

So another thread has gone by wherein we all marveled at the clarity and interoperability of the 1e Gygaxian Ruleset, each of us remarking, "Those rules are as clear as an unmuddied stream; verily, the rules are as easy to apply as soft butter on a hot griddle!"

Unfortunately, we did manage to find one rule that didn't quite click. So I did a quick canvas of this site (some of the history) and some other hidden places where grognards congregate before spawning* to see how other people dealt with the rule in question, so that I could present this as a poll.

*Grognards spawn by telling...

• Snarf Zagyg
• Replies: 89
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

D&D General Thread 'How to Read a Rule: Dueling Canons in D&D'

Sep 8, 2023

A recent thread on first level Magic Users in AD&D (1e) ended up meandering, as threads are wont to do, into discussing various opaque rules from the Gygaxian era and the "officialness" of Sage Advice from that time. Oh, we also discussed how to best serve Bards ... my suggestion? Medium Rarye.

Anyway, the whole thing started me thinking about the general idea of how we interpret rules, and how we use different authorities when interpreting rules. Unfortunately for you, when I have a thought, I am forced to expound upon that thought with all the prolixity of a legal code ...

• Snarf Zagyg
• Replies: 46
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

For sure. If it ever came up(I saw zero attempts at bard during 1e), we'd have let a multi-class half-elven fighter/thief become a bard when both of those levels met the bard requirements.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, thinking back on it, we allowed someone with the proper rolled stats, who remembered bards even existed, and who wanted to be a bard, to just start as a 1st level bard. I saw that happen one time from 1983 when I started to 1989 when we switched to 2e.

 

[TwoSix]

Actually, thinking back on it, we allowed someone with the proper rolled stats, who remembered bards even existed, and who wanted to be a bard, to just start as a 1st level bard. I saw that happen one time from 1983 when I started to 1989 when we switched to 2e.

The problem with 1e bards wasnt really the design; it was the horrible AD&D dual-class rules and the general AD&D desire to punish characters who wanted to be interesting and change themselves midstream (like with XP penalties for alignment change).

If I ran a retro AD&D game, multiclassing and dual-classing would be the one thing I would completely change.

 

[Sacrosanct]

XP from gold piece gain is a huge one.
Unlimited spell scaling. 2e caps fireball at 10d6 and magic missiles at 5 for example.

XP for gold is for sure a big one. But then again, 1e had training times and was super expensive*. You needed all that gold. 2e had training as optional, and even then, it wasn't nearly as costly.

*First you had to be rated on a scale of 4 categories (E S F P--another non-intuitive scale) to determine how many weeks per level you had to train. Then you had to pay 1,500 gp per week per level. If you found a suitable teacher. As an aside, I don't know a single person who followed that rule as written.

Interestingly, bards can be human or half-elf, but require you to be a character with two classes and not multiclassed, and only humans can do that. You also have the stat requirements off by a little. It's not three 15s, a 12 and a 10. It's two 15s, a 17-18 strength, a 12 and a 10. To switch classes you had to have a 17 or 18 in the original class, which had to start as a fighter.

I was wrong about 3 15s. It's actually 4. RAW, statistically it would be around what? A one in a million PCs who could even qualify, depending on dice method used?

 

[Maxperson]

XP for gold is for sure a big one. But then again, 1e had training times and was super expensive*. You needed all that gold. 2e had training as optional, and even then, it wasn't nearly as costly.

*First you had to be rated on a scale of 4 categories (E S F P--another non-intuitive scale) to determine how many weeks per level you had to train. Then you had to pay 1,500 gp per week per level. If you found a suitable teacher. As an aside, I don't know a single person who followed that rule as written.

We never did. Occasionally we'd try just needing a trainer and the gold, but never once used the rating system. Usually we didn't bother with training or stopped the training after a few levels because it was super annoying.

I was wrong about 3 15s. It's actually 4. RAW, statistically it would be around what? A one in a million PCs who could even qualify, depending on dice method used?
View attachment 407570

Remember, one of those 15's(strength) had to be a 17-18 or you couldn't switch classes to thief.