D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Gary speaking for all persons at all times and places, as to what they will count fun?
No.

An important figure frequently cited for his authoritative perspective on "traditional GM" play and whose name is often attached thereto (e.g. "Gygaxian naturalism"), commenting on the topic with a critical eye toward realism above all else, would be useful. Especially if it is as logorrheic as Gygax was wont to be, since that generally implies examples and arguments, not just a flat declarative with no further meat.
 

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The point can be made more analytically, I think.

Let's suppose that there are three salient characters: H(ero), who is a player's character; V(illain), who is a GM-controlled character; and C(aptive), who is unconscious and/or immobilised and so unable to act. (And so at this stage I leave it open who normally controls C.)

And let's say the situation is this: there is an altar at the edge of a cliff, on which V has C restrained. V is going to sacrifice C at the "appointed time" (a pretty common trope). H knows this, and so does H's player. Through some-or-other game play, H has arrived at the base of the cliff, and now plans to climb to the top of it to rescue C. Given that this is H's plan, as formulated and stated by H's player, we can also take it that H's player, and H, believe that it is possible to climb the cliff before the appointed time arrives.

The GM tells H's player the difficulty for the climb (more on this below). H's player deploys whatever salient resources are available to them (eg drink their Potion of Climbing, or put on their one-use Gloves of Dexterity, or decide to use up their pouch of chalk dust, or whatever else might be applicable given their PC build, gear list, and the resolution system in question).

H's player rolls the dice, and succeeds! H makes it to the top of the cliff, and the GM now has to tell H's player what H finds at the top of the cliff. (NB. I want to set aside illusions and similar oddities that might lead the GM to describe things differently from how they really are. To make that easy to do so, I will stipulate that H is wearing Goggles of True Sight. Even without such a stipulation, the points I go on to make could be made; it would just require slightly more convoluted exposition.)

Let's say that the GM decides to tell H's player that H finds C dead on the altar. There are multiple possible explanations for making such a decision; but I want to take it for granted that, in making this decisions, the GM is following the heuristics, rules etc that they regard as applicable in these circumstances. Let's suppose that the GM has notes about the appointed time, has notes and calculations that yield the time at which H arrived at the base of the cliff, and has notes and/or calculations about the time required to climb the cliff; and when these are all put together, it follows that the appointed time arrived while H was (let's say) half way up the cliff. (Other possible explanations, heuristics etc are possible, I stick with this one just for ease of exposition.)

One question arises immediately: how does the speed of H's climb relate to the difficulty that the GM announced? Perhaps the GM didn't announce a difficulty, and just described the cliff (let's say, as a "challenging climb") - what was the framework in which the player made a choice about maximising the speed of H's ascent?

Let's further suppose that, as per the GM's notes and calculations, it was simply not possible for H to get to the top of the cliff before the appointed time. Why was the roll still called for? At some point, based on notes and calculations, the GM knew that H could not save C (eg perhaps when H arrives at the base of the cliff with no ability to fly or teleport). Why allow H's player to continue to hope, when the GM knows that the hope is futile?

In the scenario described, H's efforts in climbing turn out to be mere colour - they add content to the fiction, but they don't have any bearing upon the outcome that H's player cares about, namely, whether C is able to be rescued. That outcome was settled by the GM making their decision, based on their procedures, to which H's player was not party and was indeed ignorant of, given that H's player still hoped that H might rescue C.

I hope it is clear - it may not be clear, but I hope that it is - that a player might regard the scenario just described as frustrating, or even time-wasting. If all that is at stake is already lost, why are we at the table playing things out as if it's not?

Or let's put it another way: if the sort of scenario that I've described is taken as normal or appropriate or perhaps even, sometimes, desirable at a particular table, then to me it seems that what is at stake is not a high priority at that table. The emotional investment in play must be going somewhere else.

The approach to adjudication that @hawkeyefan has been pointing to, which takes the decision about whether or not the appointed time has arrived out of the hands of the GM and places it instead into the game play process in which both player and GM are participants, is a response to the possibility of the scenario just described. Instead of the GM being the one to decide what is at stake, and whether or not it is realised, the decision is "off-loaded" to the resolution mechanism. (Which is how D&D's combat system generally does things.)

There is also a (modest) connection to the other parallel discussion, about how to handle the passage of time. I think all RPGing involves telescoping time and space to some extent, due to the nature of the medium: eg we don't describe walking down a dungeon corridor centimetre by centimetre; when travelling on a hex map distances are frequently tracked in (multiples of) miles and time in (multiples of) hours; etc. Even with the climbing example, I've never heard of a RPG climb being resolved by a description of every bodily motion and every facet of the surface being climbed.

So, in the scenario I've set out, at what point does H's player come to know that time is of the essence? That's the point at which the key decisions start to be made - eg suppose that H sails to the base of the cliff in their trusty vessel, how long does that take? And this is where, in an approach which aims to offload decision-making form the GM onto the mechanics, that that can begin. Eg if the player succeeds well on the check for sailing, then they get a bonus to their roll to climb; if they do poorly, they get a penalty. (In the fiction, this reflects having more time, or less, in which to make the climb.)

To me, this is the actual point of "fail forward" and other techniques that relieve the GM of responsibility of deciding outcomes. It is about clarity as to what is at stake in the situations the GM is presenting to the players, and about the players' ability to win or lose at least roughly corresponding to the hopes that they form in response to those narrations. It eschews anti-climaxes that follow from "behind the scenes" GM decision-making that was outside the scope of player influence via the mechanisms of play.

At a table where there is little interest in stakes, (anti-)climax, etc - where success or failure at the climb is regarded as interesting even if the GM knew it to be ultimately futile all along - then these techniques will probably not be useful.
I feel like this touches a bit on what a game is, and what it should mean to be playing a game. I think it is normally counted essential to playing a game that the outcome is not preordained. It's not settled prior to play.

So as to the role of GM, it cannot be to preordain the outcome. If it were, then GM would prevent players from genuinely playing a game. It would be more akin to acting according to a script: the actors may well go through some unscripted motions and enjoy certain experiences but it cannot be said that they are playing a game.

One possible response to your thought-experiment could be to say that it is the GM's job to set up the board but not to preordain the outcome. And so to deny that the GM described exists, or if they do exist to say that their mistakes are larger and more egregious: they're not administering or refereeing a game. I suppose one could say they are not really a GM (they've fallen outside what ought to be properly referred to by that label.)

Then as to valid-GMs, those occupied in playing a game, what is the difference from the perspective of the players from their setting up the board or some mechanics doing that? To give an idea of what I mean, suppose rather than GM deciding C is dead, the game rules had them roll for it at the start of play. Perhaps the result will be how many actions players will have to reach C, and half of the possible results rule out reaching C in time to save them. For that half, according to what I've laid out above, it seems that players are no more involved in playing a game than had GM decided.

If that is right, then it's not the use of GM or mechanics to decide, it's the preordaining that is mistaken.
 

But this assumes that absolutely every "lowlight" moment always informs the next highlight moment, and further that nothing except those "lowlight" moments contributes anything at all.

What is far more likely is that any given lowlight may have no effect at all, or some effect, or an awful lot of effect. And, further, that any given highlight may be informed by several other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with those lowlight moments. So the sum for any highlight might be the preceding "lowlights" within ±5, more or less randomly distributed, and any given "lowlight" has (say) a 1 in 3 chance of being ignored entirely.

So we get
6, 8, 4, 17, 9, 5, 14, 2, 4, 4, 11
17, 14, 11

Under such conditions, where the highlights are understood to be loosely randomly distributed (e.g. 9+1d12) and whether or not any given "lowlight" contributes at all is at least slightly randomized, it's plenty possible to get a distribution of highlights-only that matches up to statistical significance (or at least human perception).

Further, remember that in games like AW, DW, Prince Valiant, etc., character-establishing moments are NOT "lowlights". They are in fact fantastically important, arguably more important (at least some of the time) than action-heavy/dangerous/"heroic"/etc. moments.
I feel like reflection on the vastly greater number of permutations of actual play defeats the "plenty possible" claim here. It's not 6, 8, 4, it's more like 6897362106120896598748907234157990745, 83791457390874390878097432, 48036214091861289745601298735496. And I still have not used enough digits by orders of magnitude.

I like the "no different to human perception" notion more, but believe that humans are still more perceptive than needs to be believed for that to work out.

I feel the 'other contributions' line of argument might contain the most potential. One could claim something like 'other contributions' drown out any informing or inflecting from lowlights. Against that, one could call for examples to see if that seems at all common. And I suppose those contributions will also need to drown out any informing or inflecting between highlights, which seems to make them an argument for "It doesn't matter what I do in each moment of play, because what happens in subsequent moments is down to what is introduced in those moments." I don't totally hate that line of argument, but I can't help feeling it might lead nowhere good...
 
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Right. This is one of the ways that moving the decision to the mechanics… to the gameplay… allows for player agency.

In the games of many folks here, I imagine that the player could make their climb check and get to the top whole and as quickly as possible… and the GM could then say “but you’re still too late… your friend has been killed”
The GM could just say that but IMO it would all depend on just what's going on up there.

If the friend is in combat then probably best to play out that combat round-by-round while the PC is trying to climb the cliff. Hell, maybe by the time you get up there your friend doesn't need saving any more as he's defeated his foes singlehandedly. :)

If the friend is bleeding out and the question is one of not only whether or not you climb the cliff but how long you take doing it, if-when you reach the top there'd be some sort of roll to determine if the friend is still going (or, in other words, how long you took in climbing). Even if your friend is still alive, though, unless you've got magical curing or medical skills you still may or may not be able to save him; that's a separate issue (and thus separate resolution) from the climbing piece.

If your friend is simply pinned by a fallen tree but is otherwise more or less OK, all you have to do is move the tree; and as the climbing already shows you have some athletics going for you, this should be fairly easy.
Keeping the roll so focused on success/failure of the task attempted rather than the resolution of the situation means that the GM gets to continue calling the shots.
It doesn't make any difference to the GM's shot-calling abilities but the added granularization does make total success a bit less likely. I'm fine with that.
 

I feel like this touches a bit on what a game is, and what it should mean to be playing a game. I think it is normally counted essential to playing a game that the outcome is not preordained. It's not settled prior to play.

So as to the role of GM, it cannot be to preordain the outcome. If it were, then GM would prevent players from genuinely playing a game. It would be more akin to acting according to a script: the actors may well go through some unscripted motions and enjoy certain experiences but it cannot be said that they are playing a game.

One possible response to your thought-experiment could be to say that it is the GM's job to set up the board but not to preordain the outcome. And so to deny that the GM described exists, or if they do exist to say that their mistakes are larger and more egregious: they're not administering or refereeing a game. I suppose one could say they are not really a GM (they've fallen outside what ought to be properly referred to by that label.)
It's not a thought experiment. It's a reflection on an approach to RPG play that has been advocated in this thread - eg by @Lanefan and (as best I read their posts) @Micah Sweet and maybe also @AlViking and perhaps even @SableWyvern (though I'm least sure about that last suggestion).

And it is an approach that has deep roots in the hobby. Here's a post from over 13 years ago where discussion about this sort of thing came up; and it was not new then:
It depends what you mean. I'm happy for time to be a factor in the fiction ("If we don't rescue the prisoners in time, they'll all be sacrificed!"). But if it's going to be a factor in resolution, I want that to play out onstage ("Oh know - the gnoll demon priest is about to sacrifice those prisoners, and there's a demon and an ogre in the way - do you think you can get through there to rescue them?" - as it happens, the players in my game adopted defensive tactics at the start of the encounter and lost one of the prisoners).

This passage has influenced quite a bit how I think about and adjudicate ingame time (and some other things as well - the bolding is mine):

Simulationism over-riding Narrativism

*A weapon does precisely the same damage range regardless of the emotional relationship between wielder and target. (True for RuneQuest, not true for Hero Wars)

*A player is chastised for taking the potential intensity of a future confrontation into account when deciding what the character is doing in a current scene, such as revealing an important secret when the PC is unaware of its importance.

*The time to traverse town with super-running is deemed insufficient to arrive at the scene, with reference to distance and actions at the scene, such that the villain's bomb does blow up the city. (The rules for DC Heroes specifically dictate that this be the appropriate way to GM such a scene).​

Conversely, when framing narratively intense scenes is allowed to override simulationist concerns, the hero will arrive "just in time" to try and stop the villain detonating the bomb (or sacrificing the prisoners, or . . .).

A related comment - when Gygax says in the DMG that there can be no meaningful campaign without properly tracking time and treating it as a player resource, he is wrong. For some sorts of play - especially operational gamist play - what he says is true. But there are other ways to play the game.
In terms of your ( @clearstream's) framing, the GM is not "pre-ordaining" but rather H's player made a decision somewhere or other (eg maybe they spent too much time haggling over the price of chalk dust) such that the consequence of being unable to rescue C follows.

It's not really about pre-ordaining, but rather about at what point does the GM reveal that the effort to rescue C will fail? In the example I gave, play continues for some time, with actions being declared and resolved, even though the GM knows that all hope is lost.
 

But this assumes that absolutely every "lowlight" moment always informs the next highlight moment, and further that nothing except those "lowlight" moments contributes anything at all.

What is far more likely is that any given lowlight may have no effect at all, or some effect, or an awful lot of effect. And, further, that any given highlight may be informed by several other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with those lowlight moments. So the sum for any highlight might be the preceding "lowlights" within ±5, more or less randomly distributed, and any given "lowlight" has (say) a 1 in 3 chance of being ignored entirely.

So we get
6, 8, 4, 17, 9, 5, 14, 2, 4, 4, 11
17, 14, 11

Under such conditions, where the highlights are understood to be loosely randomly distributed (e.g. 9+1d12) and whether or not any given "lowlight" contributes at all is at least slightly randomized, it's plenty possible to get a distribution of highlights-only that matches up to statistical significance (or at least human perception).
Part of the issue is that there's no way of knowing which lowlights now will affect which highlights later until (sometimes quite a while) after the fact.

For example, the sequence might go 6, 8, 4, 18, 9, 5, 14, 2, 4, 4, 10. Or it might go 6, 8, 4, 14, 9, 5, 13, 2, 4, 4, 11; the '14' is only built up by the preceding 6 and 8, the 4 goes with the 9 to give the 13, then the 5, 2, and second 4 make up the 11 at the end; the first 4 of the ending pair affects nothing.

And this is still a very simple version. Sometimes what seems like a disconnected lowlight now helps lead to a highlight three sessions from now; only in hindsight can anyone see how they tied together.
 

Everyone here has done a lot of RPGing. So we have all probably played through numerous "x"s - like purchasing gear, or foraging for herbs - which did not shape what followed in any very interesting way.
Say an L contains haggling, which leads to proposing a wager, which leads to a debt, which leads to a highlight scene. That's a chain of play that in my experience is not uncommon in sandbox. Thus there is some probability that an L contains something that won't arise unless played and will go on to infom Hs... and there are multiple Ls per H.

Furthermore, I conjecture that the approach to play that favours spending time at the table on the "x"s is also an approach to play that eschews "fail forward" or similar sorts of techniques, that is, it is more inclined to treat each "x" as relatively self-contained, because of the rejection of drawing sweeping causal or thematic connections that can't be straightforwardly explained by reference to local temporal and spatial features of the ingame situation.
I think this mistates or misapprehends what people preferring simple fail expect those fails to lead to.

This conjecture further supports the plausibility of my stipulation.
I don't dislike it as a conjecture. It's interesting to think about. I just don't think one can easily show it more plausible than the alternative that the exact Hs that arise in play may be informed by the Ls that arise in play.
 

Further to a discussion several hundred posts upthread about DMs revealing hidden information when it doesn't matter any more, this just happened in tonight's session:

The party had to get to a gem that was, twice a round, emitting a variable number of different-colour flashes toward different parts of the room it was in (this is a variant of the ending room in Ghost Tower of Inverness, in case it sounds familiar to anyone). By sending in some summoned idiots the PCs were able to learn some of the effects of these flashes. The gem was surrounded by a forcefield, from various disparate sources the PCs knew they had to grab hold of the gem and each other and hope for the best after that.

Mechanical details: 12 segments in the room, 12 different colours of flash, and each flash does something to anyone in that room segment. A d20 roll on a chart tells me how many segments get flashed this time, from 0 to 6. d12 for each flash to determine what segment of the room it hits, and a second d12 for each flash to determine its colour and associated effect.

Eventually, the PCs just went for it, broke through the forcefield (while learning that the effects of the flashes ranged from insta-kill to quite beneficial, by no means were they all bad), grabbed the gem, and found themselves outside above the complex they'd just been in. They then destroyed the gem, which also in effect destroyed the complex below.

And so afterwards, knowing it didn't matter any more, I told them exactly how I'd been determining the number and type of flashes and what the flashes did.
 

Further to a discussion several hundred posts upthread about DMs revealing hidden information when it doesn't matter any more, this just happened in tonight's session:

The party had to get to a gem that was, twice a round, emitting a variable number of different-colour flashes toward different parts of the room it was in (this is a variant of the ending room in Ghost Tower of Inverness, in case it sounds familiar to anyone). By sending in some summoned idiots the PCs were able to learn some of the effects of these flashes. The gem was surrounded by a forcefield, from various disparate sources the PCs knew they had to grab hold of the gem and each other and hope for the best after that.

Mechanical details: 12 segments in the room, 12 different colours of flash, and each flash does something to anyone in that room segment. A d20 roll on a chart tells me how many segments get flashed this time, from 0 to 6. d12 for each flash to determine what segment of the room it hits, and a second d12 for each flash to determine its colour and associated effect.

Eventually, the PCs just went for it, broke through the forcefield (while learning that the effects of the flashes ranged from insta-kill to quite beneficial, by no means were they all bad), grabbed the gem, and found themselves outside above the complex they'd just been in. They then destroyed the gem, which also in effect destroyed the complex below.

And so afterwards, knowing it didn't matter any more, I told them exactly how I'd been determining the number and type of flashes and what the flashes did.
While this isn't a bad thing, I can't really say it's that much of a good thing? Like if there are rules and the players have no idea what they are and far too little data to figure them out, I'm not really sure how that's that much different from not having rules at all. The players won't be able to meaningfully respond beyond blind scrambling either way. I guess it contributes to a sense of "okay, so there were rules", which can build trust, but that could just as easily be a post hoc invention to make something without rules seem like it had them.

And this isn't some "EVERY GM IS ALWAYS LYING!!!" thing either. Just that there are GMs out there who do in fact do that and recommend that others do it too. Like Matt Colville with his faked rolls (literally pre-rolling dice so he can "show" the player that it's "real"), which he explicitly admitted to in a YouTube video. When there is an active element of the community that poisons the value of after-the-fact messaging, the already rather reduced value of "when it no longer matters" demonstration is weakened even further.

I guess what I'm saying is, there's no skin in the game for you when you do this, which is why GMs like Colville do what they do, they know they can get away with it. If you never reveal what's really going on until after it doesn't matter, well...it kinda doesn't matter! It also kinda matters, but not nearly as much as you might like it to.

A reveal when there's still a meaningful chance for it to matter to the game, however, that definitely matters. (Note "meaningful"; I don't count "there's a 0.001% chance this might come up again!") Because that means you as GM have skin in the game now. The parameters are known and thus the players can, at least in principle, detect things that go outside those parameters. The GM can't just play silly buggers and then ad hoc justify it afterward by inventing whatever they like, since (as you have made clear) your rules are binding on yourself, you don't violate them once they're made.

Again, I'm not saying this to disparage what you did. It's good to let the players know about stuff. It's just not that much of a gesture to only do this sort of thing when it no longer matters whether or not you do...because it no longer matters. It's a much more meaningful gesture to do it when it still does matter, even if it doesn't necessarily matter as much, or even if it isn't guaranteed to come up again later.
 

It's not really about pre-ordaining, but rather about at what point does the GM reveal that the effort to rescue C will fail? In the example I gave, play continues for some time, with actions being declared and resolved, even though the GM knows that all hope is lost.
This seems to be along the lines of "when should one's opponent in chess knock over their king". Ought they to wait until checkmate is offered, or ought they to do so as soon as they see that there is no line of play that escapes it? That makes me wonder what counts as our proper locations of play? Is it strictly up to when the outcome is preordained, or can it fall in times leading up or overruning that? To get at what I mean about our "locations of play" I want to look at some related albeit in respects dissimilar cases.

Situation A -- C is alive at the start, but doomed. That's the set up. What we're going to play to find out is what our H's will do in their (futile) attempt to save C. Game play is going to be located in the scenes where we see how that goes.​
Situation B -- C is alive at the start and after each round of player actions GM will secretly roll to see if C has been sacrificed. There's a chance that our H's can reach C before they've been sacrificed. As it happens, the dice decide that C is sacrificed before our H's get to them. Ought GM to reveal this? Will game play end when it is revealed?​
Situation C -- C is alive at the start and after each round of player actions GM will decide if C has been sacrificed. There's a chance that our H's can reach C before they've been sacrificed. As it happens, GM decides that C is sacrificed before our H's get to them. Ought GM to reveal this? Will game play end when it is revealed?​
Situation D -- C is guaranteed to be alive when players reach them. We play to find out not whether they will reach C in time, but what our H's will need to do to get there. It seems this mirrors A, where game play is going to be located in the scenes where we see how that goes.​
Assessing cases like these makes me continue to wonder why it matters whether GM decides or dice decide?* They raise interesting questions around whether and when a preordained outcome should be disclosed, and where groups might locate their game play? In reference to sandbox, if game play is located in the journey and not the destination, then what sorts of worries about that should I have?


*One answer we've discussed in the past is VB's observation that GM will make less stern decisions than the dice will.
 
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