Level Up (A5E) Druid Skinchanger AC 22 with shield +1 when wild shaped at level 8

Tessarael

Adventurer
I observed that the Druid Skinchanger archetype with Wisdom modifier to wildshape AC can achieve high armor class when in a form like say a Dire Ape, Myconid, or Vegepygmy that can use a shield. Specifically, at level 8 with Wisdom 20 to +5 Wisdom modifier to AC, and base Druid wildshape AC of 14, add in a Medium Shield +1 for another +3 AC, and that's AC 22.

Is AC 22 reasonable for a Druid Skinchanger at level 8?

For comparison, a Ranger with Dexterity 20 in Padded Leather +2 with Medium Shield +1 will have AC of 12 + 2 + 5 + 3 = AC 22. And a Fighter in Full Plate with Medium Shield +1 will have AC of 18 + 3 = AC 21. So the AC of the Druid Skinchanger seems not too unreasonable, but a rather tanky build.

Thoughts?
 

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I'd say the only thing to remember is that donning/doffing a shield takes an action... the druid would have to be carrying (not wearing) the shield, then when the fight starts they'll drop the shield, BA shift, and action strap on the shield. Technically it'd take an item interaction to free the shield from their back to drop it, and another item interaction to pick it up...
If they're doing all this stuff before combat, then it is what it is 😅 but during combat, it'd be a bit of an action nightmare. Cuz remember all the stuff druid is carrying when they shapechange disappears into their new form.

A5E numbers get a bit higher than one would otherwise expect with 5e, but there it is- that's not a crazy AC, but it's high.

Side note: I try to avoid giving +1/2/3 items that don't have attunement attached to them, especially in A5E, because it throws 5e's math out of whack. But I have optimizing players.
 
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Thoughts?
Well, level 8 NPC has a proficiency bonus of +3. If we take the standard assumption that characters start with their most important stat at 16 and take ASI at level 4 and 8, we get to a best attribute bonus of +5.
So that alone makes an attack bonus of +8, without any other magical, equipment or situational bonus, requiring a 14 or better to hit vs AC 22, or a 30% chance to hit.
So it's a very tanky build, but not totally out of whack
 

A level 9 Druid Skinchanger with Wisdom 20 can be very tanky indeed. With the 2nd level spell Force of Will as a reaction to damage to recover 2d10 + Wisdom modifier HP, 6d8 temporary HP from changing to a CR 3 shape, and 1st level spell Absorb Elements as a reaction to halve elemental damage, with AC 22, they will be very difficult to take down.

If your wild shape is Vegepygmy Moldmaker, you're also regenerating 7 HP/turn, though that's probably overkill. :) That said, I wouldn't allow a Vegepygmy wild shaped Druid to use multiattack when using a shield, so they'd be less effective offensively. The Giant Snapping Turtle is an AC 22 wild shape, doing 4d6+4 slashing damage - downside being AC drops to 17 if knocked prone and upside down but it is a DC 10 Constitution save to avoid being knocked prone, so only 10% chance of that.
 
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A level 9 Druid Skinchanger with Wisdom 20 can be very tanky indeed. With the 2nd level spell Force of Will as a reaction to damage to recover 2d10 + Wisdom modifier HP, 6d8 temporary HP from changing to a CR 3 shape, and 1st level spell Absorb Elements as a reaction to halve elemental damage, with AC 22, they will be very difficult to take down.

If your wild shape is Vegepygmy Moldmaker, you're also regenerating 7 HP/turn, though that's probably overkill. :) That said, I wouldn't allow a Vegepygmy wild shaped Druid to use multiattack when using a shield, so they'd be less effective offensively. The Giant Snapping Turtle is an AC 22 wild shape, doing 4d6+4 slashing damage - downside being AC drops to 17 if knocked prone and upside down but it is a DC 10 Constitution save to avoid being knocked prone, so only 10% chance of that.
YMMV, but with all the additional cool options, features, "stuff," in A5E.. some things, especially some combos, are gonna be busted, and it's gonna be up to you (and your players) to address them. I've had to do this a number of times... largely with the berserker, but some maneuvers as well. Hopefully you're lucky and some of your players will say "this really is too powerful, I think we need to fix this or disallow it." I try to be very sure before I start throwing around nerfs, see it play at the table, but some of the stuff needs it. I don't know if your situation qualifies, I'd say it depends on how the rest of the party is comparing to the druid. And yes, Force of Will is quite nice.
 

We're about to hit level 4 in this campaign. So far my Druid Skinchanger has been a decently tank, but so is the other front line warrior.

The Rogue Cutthroat has often been the most effective character offensively, with good reason due to Sneak Attack +2d6, +2 from sniper class feature, and additional poison damage or double shot maneuver.

Last session, my Druid did the most damage, but I got lucky with attack rolls, and others did not. Particularly, because the foe had piercing resistance and was switching in-and-out of prone to minimize ranged attacks against it, which was giving me advantage in melee with Shillelagh. The risk was my character would be hit by some nasty blows from the undead, but it was also unlucky to miss me much of the time. I was using Vegepygmy wild shape form with shield for AC 18 and Shillelagh, which was effective defensively, but not offensively damage-dealing oriented.

We haven't seen any need for nerfs as yet. Vegepygmy AC will improve to 19 at level 4. Another Fighter character with Dexterity 12 is using half plate + shield for AC 18. If they switch to splint + shield they will have AC 19. If they'd taken Protection fighting style, those would be AC 19 with half plate + shield and AC 20 with splint + shield. So the Druid's AC seems reasonable in that context.
 

I was using Vegepygmy wild shape form with shield for AC 18
Remember that once in a while enemies could have a flail, which ignores the shield, so that your effective AC against the attack would be 2 or 3 points lower (if the shield was enchanted).
Also, if you got critted, you'd have to decide between taking the hit or sacrificing the shield, which again would bring the AC down until you find a replacement. The two reaction spells you mentioned are very useful in this sense.

One important point I need to understand is how your vegepygmy shapeshift can constantly have a shield, given any equipment you're wearing or wielding is fused into your shape. Is some of your companions lending you a shield every time, or are you dropping it before shapeshifting?
In either case, shapeshifting takes an action, so if you drop the shield and shapeshift, you're done for the turn. Enemies could just kick that shield away, so it's a good tactic but needs preparation.

As for the creatures you can shapeshift into, I personally wouldn't allow anything not directly coming from A5E, simply because over time I came to deeply mistrust 5E's monsters math. A5E's monsters seem to be more reasonable and balanced, overall.
 

I have only used Vegepygmy form once thus far, last session. We had time to prepare before the encounter, so the character would have put down shield and club, changed to Vegepygmy form, then picked them up and wielded them both.

At level 10, Druid Skinchanger archetype gets Rediscovered Self, which allows you to stay indefinitely in one selected wild shape form. Also note that as Skinchanger, wild shaping is a bonus action. But you are correct, wielding gear in a wild shape generally means that multiple turns have been spent changing form and gear.

Regarding A5E vs. 5E monsters and game balance for wild shape, I have looked through a lot of the options from both sources, particularly up to CR 3. Both in A5E and 5E there are some examples that appear unbalanced vs. other options of similar CR (e.g., Black Talon Spider from A5E To Save a Kingdom vs. A5E Monstrous Menagerie's Giant Spider). I have omitted options that I thought were over-powered, as has my DM.

In the case of Vegepygmy, our concern is whether the regeneration capability is too good. We're play-testing it to see if that poses a problem. IMHO, Vegepygmy is good from a defensive standpoint, but significantly weaker than other options offensively. Attack +5 and damage d8+5 (9.5) with Shillelagh vs. say Giant Vulture with multiattack at +4 and damage d8+2 (2x 6.5 = 13.0), or Ape with multiattack at +5 and damage d4+3 (2x 5.5 = 11.0), and Ape could also use shield and Shillelagh for similar benefits, albeit without the regeneration.

The advantage to including other 5E sources for beasts and plants is that it gives some more variety to forms available.
 

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