What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[tetrasodium]

Yeah. I really appreciate them trying to make the Conditions in the game more interactive which I think should be more fun for both players and GMs. The lose your turn stuff is never really fun and not very tactical either.

I think more noteworthy is that by completely redesigning a lot of sacred cows like the attack roll and really leaning into class based design with class specific resources that were viscerally specific in more than name during actual gameplay Draw Steel was able to do that without just guaranteeing success on basically anything.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The upside is that DS has a bias towards always letting you do something on a turn. It’s not very cinematic to fail a Save Ends roll and then go “welp.” So most of the conditions are “take a Bane on a power roll (unless)” or “only take one action” etc.

Good design from a game engagement POV. The biggest negative reactions I see in 13th Age are to Stun (which pretty much shuts you out until it goes away), Confusion (which makes your actions active hazards to the other PCs) and Weaken (which allows you to take actions but seriously messes them up both offensively and defensively).

Out of curiosity, if you're familiar to make the comparison (and if not anyone else can pipe in), are DS Banes closer to 5e Disadvantage or SotDL Banes (or something else)?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah. I really appreciate them trying to make the Conditions in the game more interactive which I think should be more fun for both players and GMs. The lose your turn stuff is never really fun and not very tactical either.

I agree with the first, but having the capacity to shut opponets temporarily out of actions can be very tactical in a "defeat in detail" sort of way.

 

[Staffan]

Good design from a game engagement POV. The biggest negative reactions I see in 13th Age are to Stun (which pretty much shuts you out until it goes away), Confusion (which makes your actions active hazards to the other PCs) and Weaken (which allows you to take actions but seriously messes them up both offensively and defensively).

Out of curiosity, if you're familiar to make the comparison (and if not anyone else can pipe in), are DS Banes closer to 5e Disadvantage or SotDL Banes (or something else)?

Not familiar with SotDL despite having the PDFs since forever, but a single Bane in Draw Steel is a -2 to a roll. That's a pretty hefty penalty, as you are normally rolling 2d10+ a stat (that at best can start at 2), with maybe a +2 for skill if it's not an ability roll, and seeing which of the 11 or less/12-16/17 or higher tiers the roll falls into. Unlike 5e, you can also have a double bane, which doesn't give a numerical penalty but rather downgrades the result a whole tier. There are also edges, which work the other way around.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Not familiar with SotDL despite having the PDFs since forever, but a single Bane in Draw Steel is a -2 to a roll. That's a pretty hefty penalty, as you are normally rolling 2d10+ a stat (that at best can start at 2), with maybe a +2 for skill if it's not an ability roll, and seeing which of the 11 or less/12-16/17 or higher tiers the roll falls into. Unlike 5e, you can also have a double bane, which doesn't give a numerical penalty but rather downgrades the result a whole tier. There are also edges, which work the other way around.

SotDL Banes/Boons add or subtract a D6 from the D20 roll involved; they don't stack, exactly, but they can cancel each other, and if you get multiples on one end you roll all and take the highest D6, so there's some cumulative effect, but its diminishing returns (the most you ever need to roll in it is 25, too). I tend to find it significantly more acceptable than the way 5e style advantage/disadvantage works on multiple levels.

 

[Staffan]

SotDL Banes/Boons add or subtract a D6 from the D20 roll involved; they don't stack, exactly, but they can cancel each other, and if you get multiples on one end you roll all and take the highest D6, so there's some cumulative effect, but its diminishing returns (the most you ever need to roll in it is 25, too). I tend to find it significantly more acceptable than the way 5e style advantage/disadvantage works on multiple levels.

In Draw Steel, banes and edges cap at double bane/edge, and cancel each other out after capping. So one of each cancel out, as does a double of each. If you have a double of one type and one of the other, you roll with one of the type you have a double of.

 

[zakael19]

Good design from a game engagement POV. The biggest negative reactions I see in 13th Age are to Stun (which pretty much shuts you out until it goes away), Confusion (which makes your actions active hazards to the other PCs) and Weaken (which allows you to take actions but seriously messes them up both offensively and defensively).

Out of curiosity, if you're familiar to make the comparison (and if not anyone else can pipe in), are DS Banes closer to 5e Disadvantage or SotDL Banes (or something else)?

Already answered above, but part of the goodness there is small bits of math required. +2/-2 when your core stat is unlikely to scale past +5 IIRC? is pretty easy; simply shifting your result left or right a success tier is even easier since the tier outcomes are written with your ability. I love that when you get a "double" bane/edge it's not math any more, but you do still have a reason to try and avoid/seek out ways to get that second tier.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Already answered above, but part of the goodness there is small bits of math required. +2/-2 when your core stat is unlikely to scale past +5 IIRC? is pretty easy; simply shifting your result left or right a success tier is even easier since the tier outcomes are written with your ability. I love that when you get a "double" bane/edge it's not math any more, but you do still have a reason to try and avoid/seek out ways to get that second tier.

I'm rather bothered by the capped/cancel out combo (that's one of the things I dislike about Advantage/Disadvantage) but it may be that things normally covered by that are handled by other effects in DS.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm rather bothered by the capped/cancel out combo (that's one of the things I dislike about Advantage/Disadvantage) but it may be that things normally covered by that are handled by other effects in DS.

I can understand that. But Draw Steel’s power roll mechanic just fits you into 1 of 3 tiered results by basically a table lookup.

So a roll of 3 on 2d10 but with double edge just grants the middle tier result which normally requires a 12-16. Practically getting +10 bonus for pitiful dice roll. But then the same double edge escalating a tier when the result was a 12, if it was two +2 (a +4) it would sad trombone into a 16 result getting a same tier 2, but because Draw Steel makes a double edge escalate the tier result a 12 goes straight to tier 3 best result (normally 17+).

I do like that double edge plus a single bane results in still having edge, none of the single disadvantage cancelling out multiple sources of advantage infuriation.

 

[Staffan]

I'm rather bothered by the capped/cancel out combo (that's one of the things I dislike about Advantage/Disadvantage) but it may be that things normally covered by that are handled by other effects in DS.

I could start discussing it but I'll just let James(?) speak for himself: