D&D 5E (2024) The Great Wizard Extinction.

[Stalker0]

So long as either the PC or a commensurate NPC can conceivably acquire the same abilities, it's all good.

I've never agreed with that point of view. PCs and NPCs are different, and PCs get access to all sorts of things NPCs don't.

Why does the NPC get cool thing X....because weird circumstance XYZ happened to them....that's it we move on. DMs are 100% liscenced to give NPCs weird quirks and abilities that PCs can't get. If a PC is salty about that, they are happy to join team NPC

 

[Stalker0]

Bless for example has alwaways been overrated. It eats up concentration and an action. So it better turns a few misses into hits or helps keeping up a concentration. On average, bless turns every 8th miss/failure into a hit/success.
This has to make up spending an action doing nothing and doing no direct damage with your concentration slot.

Bad? No. Still a good spell. But it pays its dividents rather slow on average.

No bless is amazing because it effects 3 characters. I bless my two frontliners with 2 attacks. So to your point, every 2 rounds of combat I get an extra hit (or more if they are fighters).

Now throw in that area spell that hits a couple of them, again more chance to save (and its one of the veery very few things in the game that boosts a saving throw).

And of course there is always the scenario where a party does the 1 round buff and runs in, so you don't really waste the time.


I've seen 20th level characters still use bless when higher level concentration spells were done or just not useful for that particular scenario, its just that good.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No bless is amazing because it effects 3 characters. I bless my two frontliners with 2 attacks. So to your point, every 2 rounds of combat I get an extra hit (or more if they are fighters).

2 rounds. Of course. 4 attacks per round. I somehow missed that there are 2 fighters with 2 attacks each. Average +2.5 on a d20. And you forst to make up for the fact your first action did nothing. Which can have a rippling effect on the successive rounds. A direct damage spell might have killed a single enemy or helped drop them at least.

Now throw in that area spell that hits a couple of them, again more chance to save (and its one of the veery very few things in the game that boosts a saving throw).

Agreed.

And of course there is always the scenario where a party does the 1 round buff and runs in, so you don't really waste the time.

Great scenario.

I've seen 20th level characters still use bless when higher level concentration spells were done or just not useful for that particular scenario, its just that good.

At high level, when everyone deals massive damage and has a lot of attacks and a lot to save against, yes bless is great. Also good to be cast on a 2nd or 3rd level spell so the whole party is affected.

But it is not totally overpowered as people claimed. It is a very solid buff spell in prolonged fight or against spellcasters.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No bless is amazing because it effects 3 characters. I bless my two frontliners with 2 attacks. So to your point, every 2 rounds of combat I get an extra hit (or more if they are fighters).

Having two seems like a lot to me. And given that most combat lasts 3 rounds, that means you gain one extra hit at the cost of one hit - next benefit zero.

 

[James Gasik]

Don't get me started on PC vs NPC abilities.

Well as was pointed out, apparently some Wizards do get an ability like this. Though I was mostly responding to a poster who thought all Wizards should have resistance to magic as a class feature, which would fit with their "magical researcher" identity- I'd love to see a Wizard snicker at some jumped-up Sorcerer or Warlock after their spell fails to have any effect.

"The ability to cast a spell is not indicative of the ability to comprehend a spell. You clumsily pull the strands of aether together to hurl flame at me, while I can isolate the fundamental flux node, and by plucking at a single thread, allow your ill-formed magic to wash over me like no more than a breeze."

(And yeah, that could also describe counterspell, I know, but it's not like that's an exclusive Wizard ability).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The ability to cast a spell is not indicative of the ability to comprehend a spell. You clumsily pull the strands of aether together to hurl flame at me, while I can isolate the fundamental flux node, and by plucking at a single thread, allow your ill-formed magic to wash over me like no more than a breeze."

Talking like Doctor Strange is a core wizard ability.

 

[Stalker0]

Having two seems like a lot to me. And given that most combat lasts 3 rounds, that means you gain one extra hit at the cost of one hit - next benefit zero.

+2.5 to attacks translates to .05*2.5 = .125 more hits per round per attack made. (assuming to hit is not already so high that the bonus does't matter, but its rare in bounded accuracy to get that high).

.125 x 2 attacks per fighter type x 2 frontline fighters that I mentioned = .5 more hits per round. So over 2 rounds....1 additional hit.


Perhaps it helps if people see the normal and the new as a comparison. Assume the fighter has a 60% hit chance.

Normally: .6 x 2 x 2 = 2.4 hits per round.... 4.8 hits over 2 rounds.
Bless: .725 x 2 x 2 = 2.9 hits per round... 5.8 hits over 2 rounds (+1 hit)

If we are talking 3 rounds of combat, that's +1.5 hits.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

+2.5 to attacks translates to .05*2.5 = .125 more hits per round per attack made. (assuming to hit is not already so high that the bonus does't matter, but its rare in bounded accuracy to get that high).

Sorry. Yes. Somehow only counted one attack per fighter. So one more hit every 2 rounds on average.

.125 x 2 attacks per fighter type x 2 frontline fighters that I mentioned = .5 more hits per round. So over 2 rounds....1 additional hit.

If the cleric goes before both fighters, you might get 2 extra attacks in on average in an average fight.
Note that this is, when frontliners already have extra attacks.

Perhaps it helps if people see the normal and the new as a comparison. Assume the fighter has a 60% hit chance.

Normally: .6 x 2 x 2 = 2.4 hits per round.... 4.8 hits over 2 rounds.
Bless: .725 x 2 x 2 = 2.9 hits per round... 5.8 hits over 2 rounds (+1 hit)

If we are talking 3 rounds of combat, that's +1.5 hits.

Depending on the initiative order but yes.

Deduct the one attack the cleric does not make (which is boosted either by divine strike or is a level 5+ cantrip, maybe enhanced by wis to damage), lets count that as 1 to 1.5 attacks.

Which more or less nullifies any benefit gained by bless offensively if cast at a level 1 spell. And the damage is shifted toward the end of the combat which might allow a creature to survive an extra round. And if concentration is somehow broken, or you need to cast a different concentration spell, the bless has a negative effect.

The question is: what could a different spell (or cantrip or attack) have done for the party instead.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've never agreed with that point of view. PCs and NPCs are different, and PCs get access to all sorts of things NPCs don't.

Why does the NPC get cool thing X....because weird circumstance XYZ happened to them....that's it we move on. DMs are 100% liscenced to give NPCs weird quirks and abilities that PCs can't get. If a PC is salty about that, they are happy to join team NPC

I strongly disagree, because the difference between PCs and NPCs is functionally narrative and metagame (as in, outside the confines of the setting), and that has no bearing to me on what abilities should be allowed. Whether or not the creature in question has done what is needed to acquire the ability is all that matters to me, and nothing outside the setting applies to that as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well as was pointed out, apparently some Wizards do get an ability like this. Though I was mostly responding to a poster who thought all Wizards should have resistance to magic as a class feature, which would fit with their "magical researcher" identity- I'd love to see a Wizard snicker at some jumped-up Sorcerer or Warlock after their spell fails to have any effect.

"The ability to cast a spell is not indicative of the ability to comprehend a spell. You clumsily pull the strands of aether together to hurl flame at me, while I can isolate the fundamental flux node, and by plucking at a single thread, allow your ill-formed magic to wash over me like no more than a breeze."

(And yeah, that could also describe counterspell, I know, but it's not like that's an exclusive Wizard ability).

I would love to see wizards portrayed more like this, and have the mechanics back it up. You want a flavorful niche compared to other spellcasters? There it is.