D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

How on Earth is it an exploit? It like saying that as the rule says that you can take only one bonus action per turn, taking an another bonus action on the next turn is an exploit? Like what? o_O



Yes, you can do that. I don't think it is a good houserule as it shatters verisimilitude and has weird incentives, but your game, so sure.



There is no exploit and the rules are not murky, You are inventing houserules on spot to block action declarations that would not align with your railroad. I don't think this is ideal.
I assure you, the rule was written to ensure that PCs will not spam long rest but keep adventuring. Demainding the whole party does nothing to wait 24 hours just so they can have long rest after slightest sign of resistance, is exploiting blind spot in the rule and it breaks verisimilitude because it demands to pretend the player characters aren't heroes who willingly go on adventures in the name of completely out of unvierse "optimal play performance". You are going directly against the spirit of the rule to use its blind spot to do what the rule was written to prevent, spamming long rest. If preventign that is railroading, then call me Transformable Thomas.

The rules about resting aren't exactly "murky" IMO, but you have every right make your own houserules at your table, so long as the players are on board (and it sounds like they are).
Considering what Longinus just wrote and I respond to above, I am apparently not allowed to make houserules at my table without being judged by not adhering to his bad faith, exploit friendly interpretation of the rules, even if my players are all ok with it. So you can stop saying that, it is clearly not even accepted as truth among people arguing the same point as you.
 
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Are your players stupid? That is not how one uses the spell. You use it out of combat to ensure a safe rest.
You know what? I was already annoyed by jur judgmental behavior, but if you insult my players intelligence, then I'd rather not be having conversation with you at all.
...wha?

Why on Earth would they think that's a good idea?

It's clearly not meant to be an in-combat spell...any spell with a casting time measured in minutes isn't.

The spell is hardly worthless. The PCs strategy skills OTOH...
They misread the spell, it happens. There is nothing more to it.
There can be time pressure, it just isn't always or nearly always a thing in every adventuring activity IMO. Even when it is there, it isn't always or nearly always so strong that taking a day off to rest is ridiculous. That's part of the setting too.
And then you can bear consequences of that. Some of which were time pressure you did not know about.
 

I don't disagree with you here. But it is the GM's job to present the situation so that there is time pressure if they do not want the PCs to constantly take risk free rests and if the GM fails to do so, then it is not the players' fault if they rest often.
No. It's the DMs job to present the time pressure if he wants the players to be aware of a specific time pressure. It's not the DM's job to give risk free rests if there is no clear time pressure. It's up to the players to use their brains and understand that if they leave bodies in the cultist hideout, they could be found and bad stuff could be being prepared if they take time to rest.
"No you cannot do that, and you're TFGs for wanting to," is not a proper GM response.
This does not follow.

I can have the cultists prepare traps and summon demons for when the PCs come back, without telling the players that his will happen, without allowing a risk free rest, AND without refusing to allow the rest and tell them, "Bad players!"
 

PCs are welcome to assume time pressure in every scenario, but if it isn't apparent I'm not going to bring it up without cause.
Nor will I. However, if it isn't apparent, a good amount of the time it will come up with cause. That will keep the players from just assuming constant risk free rests, because the world doesn't stop moving and facts that would cause the rest to be a bad idea don't vanish from existence because the players have learned about them.
 

CR1ish.

Investigate their hit points with hold person+hit hard.
I also have NPCs with class levels as that is a valid 5e rule. If you want to assume CR 1 monster stat blocks you can...

For the sake of argument, since we aren't talking about NPCs there, but PCs(remember, this is about PCs knowing mechanics like level), answer my question without altering the context like that.
 

No. It's the DMs job to present the time pressure if he wants the players to be aware of a specific time pressure. It's not the DM's job to give risk free rests if there is no clear time pressure. It's up to the players to use their brains and understand that if they leave bodies in the cultist hideout, they could be found and bad stuff could be being prepared if they take time to rest.

This does not follow.

I can have the cultists prepare traps and summon demons for when the PCs come back, without telling the players that his will happen, without allowing a risk free rest, AND without refusing to allow the rest and tell them, "Bad players!"
To a certain degree, giving clear hints versus petting players FAFO is about playstyle: bot all of us are up to going full Gygaxian consequences on unwary friends and family (not that there's anything wrong with that!)
 

No. It's the DMs job to present the time pressure if he wants the players to be aware of a specific time pressure. It's not the DM's job to give risk free rests if there is no clear time pressure. It's up to the players to use their brains and understand that if they leave bodies in the cultist hideout, they could be found and bad stuff could be being prepared if they take time to rest.

Sure, but the player decision is still informed by the situation the GM presents, ie. cultists instead of fixed automatons or something. And yes, something the PCs could not have anticipated could happen too if they wait, though generally I feel it is better for agency to telegraph these things at least a little bit so that the players can make more informed strategic choices.

I can have the cultists prepare traps and summon demons for when the PCs come back, without telling the players that his will happen, without allowing a risk free rest, AND without refusing to allow the rest and tell them, "Bad players!"

Yes, sure. But the last bit was the real area of contention, @Not a Decepticon saying that wanting to rest means the players are jerks. That is what I had an issue with. Letting them rest but then having logical consequences to follow from that is perfectly fine and I've at no point objected that.
 

I also have NPCs with class levels as that is a valid 5e rule. If you want to assume CR 1 monster stat blocks you can...

For the sake of argument, since we aren't talking about NPCs there, but PCs(remember, this is about PCs knowing mechanics like level), answer my question without altering the context like that.

Well two attacks is a level 5 warrior or bladelock.

With multiclassing it could be anything from 5-20.
 

Interruptions don't matter because the rest and recovery rules are so loose you can't backslide into a death spiral where more is lost than gained. With how low the bar is for short rest class nova to recharge & at will unlimited cantrip casting it probably doesn't even matter if the gm interrupts the rest with anything shy of rocks fall lightning strikes death by massive damage or an endless parade of ancient dragons opening with surprise air breath attacks.
You don't know the specific situation, so you can't say that with any confidence. Depending on what is happening, a lot more can be lost than gained by an interrupted and delayed rest. Especially if the random encounter is a hard one. Random is random. Could be one goblin, or it could be an adult dragon.
All of that remains true until the gm trolling their players like that murders the session trying to stop players from taking the rest they feel entitled to and totally justified in taking.
I don't know what you are trying to say here.
The time pressure the players have already decided they don't care about? Making it matter dives into a whole different rabbit hole of areas that 5e designs against. Furthermore the GM can't be expected to apply super tight time pressure in every adventure till the game looks more like half minute hero than d&d without resulting in eventual burnout frustration and breakdown because the rest of the rules don't support it very well
I think not. Rather, I think that most of the time when players engage the 5 minute work day, it's the DM's fault for freezing the world and allowing it. If the DMs ran a living world where things continue to happen, including preparation by the monsters/NPCs, players would decide they care about the pressures or possible pressures a good amount of the time and the 5 minute work day would vanish.

I know it certainly doesn't exist in my game, and I don't run an adversarial campaign or punish players for resting. The world just continues on, which is enough.
You literally quoted the response to this or have admitted that the once per 24hr thing doesn't matter because the players will just wait it out if they ever crash into that after deciding to rest.
Again, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
The purpose of rolling up short rest nova PCs is that it's almost impossible for their nova loop to be blocked by the gm shy of active inferno Forest fire type locations for adventures.
The party is weaker as a whole, so they will have a tougher time with the encounters. That and I have a two short rest per 24 period rule in my game. Not for nova purposes, but rather for the same reason that I don't allow unlimited cantrips. Power isn't unlimited.

Now, sure there will be less time for preparation by NPCs/monsters, or for bodies to be found, but it can still happen. If you hit those cultists I mentioned and wander off for an hour, there may be none when you get back an hour later, and now you no longer know where they are, leaving them open to prepare for whatever it is their cult does.
You miss why it matters, I linked to crapsack world on tvtropes because it describes the eventual result of the gm doing that repeatedly when players feel that a nova loop is the intended and totally justified way of playing. That being the players deciding the PCs never had a chance because the gm wants to run a terrible world where the PCs can not possibly ever succeed.
Who said anything about repeatedly? I have already said that sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The risk of the sometimes it happening is enough to stop the 5 minute work day.
The players would need to accept that any manner of playing other than nova loop alpha strikes is a reasonable or even intended manner of playing rather than some kind of killergm fueled punishment. Wotc has told those players that it very much is not intended or reasonable loudly and clearly by failing to support the gm with rules otherwise for over a decade now.
I don't agree with that. Neither the DMG nor the PHB tell the players that they will have risk free 5 minute work days. Encounters are pretty easy, because the balance around the 6-8 encounters a day, but that's different from risk free resting being a virtual guarantee.
 

You don't know the specific situation, so you can't say that with any confidence. Depending on what is happening, a lot more can be lost than gained by an interrupted and delayed rest. Especially if the random encounter is a hard one. Random is random. Could be one goblin, or it could be an adult dragon.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

I think not. Rather, I think that most of the time when players engage the 5 minute work day, it's the DM's fault for freezing the world and allowing it. If the DMs ran a living world where things continue to happen, including preparation by the monsters/NPCs, players would decide they care about the pressures or possible pressures a good amount of the time and the 5 minute work day would vanish.

I know it certainly doesn't exist in my game, and I don't run an adversarial campaign or punish players for resting. The world just continues on, which is enough.

Again, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

The party is weaker as a whole, so they will have a tougher time with the encounters. That and I have a two short rest per 24 period rule in my game. Not for nova purposes, but rather for the same reason that I don't allow unlimited cantrips. Power isn't unlimited.

Now, sure there will be less time for preparation by NPCs/monsters, or for bodies to be found, but it can still happen. If you hit those cultists I mentioned and wander off for an hour, there may be none when you get back an hour later, and now you no longer know where they are, leaving them open to prepare for whatever it is their cult does.

Who said anything about repeatedly? I have already said that sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. The risk of the sometimes it happening is enough to stop the 5 minute work day.

I don't agree with that. Neither the DMG nor the PHB tell the players that they will have risk free 5 minute work days. Encounters are pretty easy, because the balance around the 6-8 encounters a day, but that's different from risk free resting being a virtual guarantee.

Living world is one way of dealing with 5MWD.

Inexperienced/new players probably used to frozen world though. Go to point A andclear out area 1,2, maybe 3. Area 4,5,6 will be there tomorrow.

My games area 4,5,6 will either leave or get help from areas 7,8,9.

That's a playstyle/experience issue though and its not explicit in the rules or modules.

And a lot dont read DMG cover to cover or remember everything if it is made explicit.
 

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