D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

[Maxperson]

I never said that they don't, that's the problem. They often believe those consequences are the result of bad adventure design/bad encounter design/overly stingy gm running a meat grinder /etc.

Their are people who believe the world if flat, too. Belief doesn't equate to being correct, and those players would be wrong. I don't run a meat grinder. I'm not a stingy DM. My encounter design isn't bad if I figure out that the cultists notice 6 dead bodies in the room where they get their food.

Since those consequences are automatically blamed on the GM as the sole individual at the table for causing the failure it ultimately magnifies the bad blood and perceived slights every time those consequences pile up and snowball into more and more unpleasant ways.

Then those players should find a DM who just freezes the world to allow unlimited no risk rests so that they can nova.

 

[tetrasodium]

There's nothing in the game that I can think of that supports this position. It's an entitlement issue.

I believe I've flatly stated that bold bit more than once while pointing out that the players feel entitled to those rests because they believe taking so many tests is the intended way the game was designed to play.



That belief has a strong case with extremely solid support in the form of "no

GM: it's obviously meant for us to play this way or wotc would have published rules to support whatever your trying to make this into instead of d&d". Heck it's hard to argue otherwise when it's taken over a decade to simply get an admission that PCs are absurdly more effective than the system math assumed & specifically 5-6x∆ more than assumed. As for discussing it, it's not a game I would have fun with, so I'm not going to run my game that way. I'm allowed to have fun, too. If they want to play in a game that is run that way, there are other DMs out there for that sort of game. I don't believe I've ever tried to suggest or imply that I think those players are reasonable or that other gms should entertain that style while saying that it's a bad thing the rules encourage & support through various means. ∆ going from memory of mearls's post on it

Edit: I have no idea how I made that teal

 

[Micah Sweet]

the time pressure is all the loot, EXP and rewards getting taken by the other adventuring group who was hired by the client because they actually get up off their arses and can complete the three day job in less than a fortnight.

Rival adventurers. Now that's the way to generate time pressure! Really strains the "PCs are special" paradigm though.

 

[Mort]

The players doing it are having fun. Usually those players are
A: a warlock/hexadin/etc who gets to throw out fireball smite or whatever every round unless Eldritch blast would be more effective that round for whatever reason.
B: a monk who gets to burn through ki at rates that would make your standard OP anime protagonist blush
C: a 2014 fighter/moon druid/etc who is also in the group and probably wouldn't push for a rest so often but sure as heck doesn't see a reason to be the bad guy trying stop it when A & B are whining to the gm about needing more rests to keep up with soandso because that's how their class was designed
D: a barbarian who I think(?) gets to recover their rage when the party stops yet again
E: a sorcerer who at some point bites the bullet and multiclasses with warlock to pickup devils sight an imp Eldritch blast and some free sorcery points every time the party rests.

There might be a cleric or wizard who doesn't benefit much but recognizes that the group has one setting & that setting is nova or "I don't know what to do because I can't nova and will begrudgingly go through the motions but going to blame my lack of rest if anything goes bad".



I never said that they don't, that's the problem. They often believe those consequences are the result of bad adventure design/bad encounter design/overly stingy gm running a meat grinder /etc.

Since those consequences are automatically blamed on the GM as the sole individual at the table for causing the failure it ultimately magnifies the bad blood and perceived slights every time those consequences pile up and snowball into more and more unpleasant ways.

This is interesting.

I've NEVER had players who refuse to accept that some things are time sensitive. And that there are consequences for delaying.

I mean are you telling me that if you set up a challenge where there are 5 groups going after the treasure, the players will not understand that stopping for a long rest while chasing the treasure will cause them a time delay and put them behind in the race?

 

[Zardnaar]

This is interesting.

I've NEVER had players who refuse to accept that some things are time sensitive. And that there are consequences for delaying.

I mean are you telling me that if you set up a challenge where there are 5 groups going after the treasure, the players will not understand that stopping for a long rest while chasing the treasure will cause them a time delay and put them behind in the race?

Most printed adventures dont have a time limit. Or any explicit living world element.

Outside that its ask the DM as always.

 

[Maxperson]

I believe I've flatly stated that bold bit more than once while pointing out that the players feel entitled to those rests because they believe taking so many tests is the intended way the game was designed to play.

Show me where it says that?

In the PHB it talks about interrupted rests, so clearly if they feel entitled to resting free of risk, they are ignoring the rules.

In the DMG it talks about random encounters. It even mentions those as reasons why PCs don't dawdle around. And advises not resting in dangerous areas.

I see nothing to indicate that those rules don't apply and that the game was intended to be played in opposition to the rules.

That belief has a strong case with extremely solid support in the form of "no

GM: it's obviously meant for us to play this way or wotc would have published rules to support whatever your trying to make this into instead of d&d". Heck it's hard to argue otherwise when it's taken over a decade to simply get an admission that PCs are absurdly more effective than the system math assumed & specifically 5-6x∆ more than assumed.

GM: The rules support the opposite of safe resting and free from risk nova + 5 MWD. Edit: I have no idea how I made that teal LOL You have the magic touch?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Most printed adventures dont have a time limit. Or any explicit living world element.

They don't? That will teach a lot of people some bad practices...

 

[tetrasodium]

This is interesting.

I've NEVER had players who refuse to accept that some things are time sensitive. And that there are consequences for delaying.

I mean are you telling me that if you set up a challenge where there are 5 groups going after the treasure, the players will not understand that stopping for a long rest while chasing the treasure will cause them a time delay and put them behind in the race?

The PCs are special narrative helps feed confirmation bias and reject any evidence to the contrary stepping up to the wall of "it's obviously meant for us to play this way or wotc would have published rules to support whatever your trying to make this into instead of d&d"


As to those players accepting the existence of time pressure, that breaks down into a two way split that is sometimes a bit of both

* "Sure there might be consequences, but PCs are special so they don't really matter. If that weren't the case then 5e wouldn't have gotten rid of everything my PC needed from the world in past editions like magic item churn or whatever"

* "I accept that we might need to deal with this time crunch but you the GM overuse them by having them too often or you the GM didn't give us enough time to complete the goal because we are playing as design intended and you are the one who out too many encounters in with not enough time for rests".

Of course if the consequences pile up and the world views the PCs as horrible people they want nothing to do with or whatever, that too ultimately gets blamed on the GM either for being too adversarial or for not having enough skill as a GM to do anything but hit reset on the campaign instead of something like a redemption arc or whatever.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The PCs are special narrative helps feed confirmation bias and reject any evidence to the contrary stepping up to the wall of "it's obviously meant for us to play this way or wotc would have published rules to support whatever your trying to make this into instead of d&d"


As to those players accepting the existence of time pressure, that breaks down into a two way split that is sometimes a bit of both

* "Sure there might be consequences, but PCs are special so they don't really matter. If that weren't the case then 5e wouldn't have gotten rid of everything my PC needed from the world in past editions like magic item churn or whatever"

* "I accept that we might need to deal with this time crunch but you the GM overuse them by having them too often or you the GM didn't give us enough time to complete the goal because we are playing as design intended and you are the one who out too many encounters in with not enough time for rests".

Of course if the consequences pile up and the world views the PCs as horrible people they want nothing to do with or whatever, that too ultimately gets blamed on the GM either for being too adversarial or for not having enough skill as a GM to do anything but hit reset on the campaign instead of something like a redemption arc or whatever.

Why are you playing with these people?

 

[Mort]

The PCs are special narrative helps feed confirmation bias and reject any evidence to the contrary stepping up to the wall of "it's obviously meant for us to play this way or wotc would have published rules to support whatever your trying to make this into instead of d&d"

Really? Again, I've never had players try to rule lawyer me on consequences from time passing. I've never even had to explain (as far as I recall) that the world isn't a collection of scenes frozen in time waiting for the PCs to get there.

From my experience, people seem to easily understand that time passes and missing something because you took too much time for yourself is a natural consequence.

This, for me, seems so obvious I'm having trouble actually typing arguments about it!

As to those players accepting the existence of time pressure, that breaks down into a two way split that is sometimes a bit of both

* "Sure there might be consequences, but PCs are special so they don't really matter. If that weren't the case then 5e wouldn't have gotten rid of everything my PC needed from the world in past editions like magic item churn or whatever"

* "I accept that we might need to deal with this time crunch but you the GM overuse them by having them too often or you the GM didn't give us enough time to complete the goal because we are playing as design intended and you are the one who out too many encounters in with not enough time for rests".

Of course if the consequences pile up and the world views the PCs as horrible people they want nothing to do with or whatever, that too ultimately gets blamed on the GM either for being too adversarial or for not having enough skill as a GM to do anything but hit reset on the campaign instead of something like a redemption arc or whatever.

Again, I've seen plenty of "entitled" players (thankfully not recently!) but never on this issue. I just can't see trying to argue (as a player) that time should stand still until the group is good and ready as anything but absurd.