D&D 5E (2024) Mike Mearls explains why your boss monsters die too easily

I have. Met them in droves when running 5E. It‘s one of the many reasons I quit running it. The players pushed to rest as often as possible and refused to push through. Town invaded? Don‘t care. Prince sacrificed? Don‘t care. If they couldn‘t start every fight as close to full as possible they‘d simply shrug and wait. They had zero interest in risk or challenge if any kind.

Out of curiosity, what's the age range?

I tend to game with people over 40. Heck I'm the second youngest in my current group and I'm 51. Maybe that's the confound.

Though I didn't remember what you describe being a thing when I was younger either (though that was mostly before 5e, of course).
 

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I have. Met them in droves when running 5E. It‘s one of the many reasons I quit running it. The players pushed to rest as often as possible and refused to push through. Town invaded? Don‘t care. Prince sacrificed? Don‘t care. If they couldn‘t start every fight as close to full as possible they‘d simply shrug and wait. They had zero interest in risk or challenge of any kind.
Your content needs to be appealing to the players. If they want the game to have easy combat, that is their prerogative. You don't have to play with that group though, the most important factor in a successful D&D campaign is finding like-minded players.

If this is something that you find with a lot of different players, I can think of two possible reasons. 1) You make your combat too difficult. The players are terrified that if they are not at full strength, their characters will die. And you can't save the princess if you are dead (this goes back to the 1st edition ten foot pole issue). 2) Your narrative is not sufficiently engaging. The reward for narrative is more narrative. Maybe they don't care about the princess, or are anti-monarchists? I have had this issue with some CRPGs. It doesn't matter how good the gameplay is, if I'm not engaged by the narrative I'm not interested in playing on.
 
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Having played this in 5e as part of the Yawning Portal, I can tell you that it does not matter if you rest or not. ;)
This is a curious one, since the original time restriction was real world time, not in game time. The players had a fixed amount of time (not sure if it was one hour or three hours) then their characters die come what may. And the assumption was that they would almost certainly die, with the tournament scored on how far they got. No time for role play Doctor Jones.

Of course, in the 5e version, the poison gas hazard is pretty easily worked around.
 

Out of curiosity, what's the age range?

I tend to game with people over 40. Heck I'm the second youngest in my current group and I'm 51. Maybe that's the confound.

Though I didn't remember what you describe being a thing when I was younger either (though that was mostly before 5e, of course).
All over the place. I’ve run 5E for the better part of the last decade in person, over VTTs, play-by-post, etc. Easily 200+ different players over that time. I’ve run several large West Marches style games, so that’s probably a low estimate. The vast majority only cared about maximum power, i.e. always prioritizing resting over fictional consequences. Adding in more consequences or time pressure, or limiting rests, only caused players to rage quit rather than engage with the fiction.

In my one long-term D&D group, I’m also the second youngest at almost 50. When the referee there tries to push time constraints, limit rests, etc most of the other players just roll their eyes.
 

Diablo, Diablo clones Mass effect Dragon Age. Final Fantasy Star Ocean, etc once they convert to MP.
Diablo and it's clones work nothing like that! Pretty much all class abilities recharge in a matter of seconds. The only reason to return to town is to off-load excess loot.
most, CRRGs, JRPGs, ARPRGs after the 80s.
Which, because I've played a lot (most?) of them, and I can't think of any based around the idea that you clear a level and then rest. I can think of a few where when you rest you play random encounter roulette.
Fewer Video game RPGs use attrition once the 90s hit
This is true if you discount attrition during combat, but I'm not convinced many used it before then either. I never played the Gold Box games, but I was under the impression that you could withdraw to town at any time like the tabletop game.
 


So, one of the big issues from my perspective is that the narrative consequence for resting feel fuzzy. One way to deal with this is to have player facing clocks with explicit consequences like this is when reinforcements arrive. That way it becomes a part of the game experience rather than a GM stick that feels like random punishment.
Confining myself to the context of 5e D&D, I think this is where the sorts of things that @AnotherGuy mentioned become relevant:

Consistency in ruling, being transparent where possible, using player facing mechanics frequently, revealing to players how their ideas bested the scenario, open dialogue between GM and players re mechanics (because both sides make errors), elevating gamism and allowing instances of player input in colour and elements of storyline (even if minor) and the willingness to go off script are some of the best practices I have found to engender trust and a sense/taste of player-empowerment in the weaving of a partly established story (published APs) in which the GM has so much narrative control.

On the other hand, some adventures are basically static, and have no ability to react to the player's actions. Acererak's Tomb of Horrors or The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, for examples. You're actually meant to take your time and be cautious, so not only is there no reason not to rest, you literally; should when possible.

While Keraptis could react to the PC's actions in White Plume Mountain, as written, he only steps in after they recover the weapons and try to take them away. There's a lot of "classic" adventures that function in this manner, and even among the ones where the enemies can take action if the players take too much time, it's often on the DM to figure out what form that takes.

<snip>

5e's resource model is woefullly inefficient when it comes to ye olde "ancient tomb sealed for a thousand years"- and the DM shouldn't have to A) not run such adventures, or B) come up with a timeline of events just to keep the game from imploding. And of course, what happens when bad luck forces a rest or makes the party unavailable to continue? Now your clock might ensure they fail through no fault of their own.

In "old school" play, adventurers are supposed to be cautious, to advance slowly, never overcommit, gain as much information as they can, plan and prepare ahead of time for difficult fights- maybe even trying to avoid them entirely!

It seems interesting that after five decades, we have a version of D&D that breaks if players actually do anything besides rush ahead until their batteries are drained, and DM's have to conspire to keep them running full tilt, and actually punishing that sort of methodical play, which logically any sane person in universe would be attempting!
I don't see how 5e D&D is all that different from classic D&D, when it comes to the "rest economy" in these sorts of adventures. A group playing AD&D or B/X has exactly the same sorts of reasons for resting to recover spells and/or hit points as does a group playing 5e.

I think political intrigue with lots of personal drama is the worst, boardgamey is one of the playstyles that it should be good at IMO.
I'm not 100% sure what you are counting as "boardgamey" D&D. I would think of the scenarios that @James Gasik as mentioned as fitting that description: there is no overarching fiction/story logic, and the players are playing their PCs essentially as pawns. Fiction still matters to resolution, though - eg an attempt by players to have their PCs topple a statute is resolved, at least in part, by thinking through the fictional situation and how they describe their PCs interacting with it (eg using ropes or levers). I say "in part" because dice rolls (eg Bend Bars rolls in the old days, or STR checks these days) might also matter.
 

Out of curiosity, what's the age range?

I tend to game with people over 40. Heck I'm the second youngest in my current group and I'm 51. Maybe that's the confound.

Though I didn't remember what you describe being a thing when I was younger either (though that was mostly before 5e, of course).
My experience was pretty identical to @overgeeked . Most§ of my players were older millennials fellow xenniels genxrs and even a few boomers. Given the number of tables being run it shouldn't be particularly shocking that younger ply hooked up with younger gms (more than one of which has a player at my table with some level of frequency.

In addition I've seen it in players of all ages. The biggest commonality in the video game mentality approach tends to be entering through a long video game background and in older players not having played the older editions d&d much (if any) back in the day. A lot of them tend to be mtg players at the shop's mtg nights, but that could very well be pure coincidence that out them in proximity to notice posters showing that there were a couple d&d nights too.

§. "Most" as in "not all". I've had players as young as "is it ok if I help $name with his character sheet, he's going to play but I'm just here to handle the math and reading because he's $age and I noticed you have someone playing who seemed kinda close in age"
 
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what about the Death Domain Cleric then?

To me they are in the DMG because the DM can decide to not allow them as they are villain class options (per their header).
That was so much the case that iirc early AL "seasons" when "dm reward points" were a bad idea still in use offered it offered playing an oathbreaker pc as one of the rewards an AL GM could choose.
 

Diablo and it's clones work nothing like that! Pretty much all class abilities recharge in a matter of seconds. The only reason to return to town is to off-load excess loot
Didn't say you go back to town. I said you clear and area then rest. Your abilities recharge quickly but you don't get back to full until you've killed all the stuff in the area because your constantly fighting and aggroing everything.
 

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