Lolth dead?

Sarellion · Jul 2, 2003

Did the campaign City of the spider queen explain why Lolth has fallen silent?
It would interest me, what the reason was.

Dismas · Jul 2, 2003

Yes, we killed her in Q1 Queen of the Demon Web Pits. We stabbed her with a posioned dagger and she died, apparently in 1e she was not immune to poison.

This lead to one of our groups 'famous phrases' Anything but a one and she saves

Endur · Jul 2, 2003

Q1 (and later novels based on it) allowed adventurers to kill Lolth in the Demonweb as part of a campaign based on Greyhawk.

I'd have to double-check the FR sidebar, but offhand I'd say that unless there is more than one Lolth and more than one Demonweb, killing her in the Demonweb kills her no matter what world you are from. It would be one thing to say that killing Lolth on Faerun is different from killing her in Greyhawk, but killing her in her home plane of the Demonweb is supposed to be what is necessary to finish her once and for all.

During Q1, Lolth was "only" a Demon Lord. Later on, Loth become a demi-Goddess and currently is a Lesser Goddess. I have no comment on what her status is after the War of the Spider Queen novels (and the module doesn't say anything relevant), but reading between the lines I have a pretty good idea of what is happening.

Greyhawk canon is vague on whether Lolth actually died in Q1, however we can surmise that G1-G3, D1-D3, Q1 happened and that adventurers slew what they thought was Lolth. What they slew might not have been the real Lolth, it might just have been an avatar.

Alternatively, she might have really died, but she came back from death somehow with even greater powers (dying as a demon lord, coming back as a lesser goddess) through the worship of her fanatical followers.

LuYangShih · Jul 2, 2003

Or we could assume that the adventurers failed to kill Lolth in those modules, and she killed them. Canon states she is still around in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms material, so it is clear she did not die.

Psion · Jul 2, 2003

Endur said:
Q1 (and later novels based on it) allowed adventurers to kill Lolth in the Demonweb as part of a campaign based on Greyhawk.

I'd have to double-check the FR sidebar, but offhand I'd say that unless there is more than one Lolth and more than one Demonweb, killing her in the Demonweb kills her no matter what world you are from.

You would think so, but in 3e, they have pulled away from the concept of "many worlds, one multiverse". FR has a totally different cosmology from Greyhawk now.

That said, I don't really think you should read too much canon into the novels. If you did, there would be no Greyhawk; as I understand it, it was destroyed in one novel.

And woe betide you if you use the novels and a guide to how magic works...

Flexor the Mighty! · Jul 2, 2003

She went down hard at the hands of a band of epic heros back in 571 or so. Graz'zt, Demogorgon, Fraz-urb'luu, Orcus, Juiblex, & Zuggtmoy were quite thrilled with the outcome of that adventure. Damn uppity demon lord prancing around like she was a goddess!

They still war over her home layers.

johnsemlak · Jul 2, 2003

In the GDQ 1-7 supermodule, there is no ending where Lolth is completely destroyed, even if she is slain in the demonweb by the PCs. In that 1e module, she was both a Demon Lord and a Lesser Goddess. The Module stated that if she was slain her soul would be lost in the abyss but not completely dead and went on to say she would or could regain her status as a divine being, though merely a demi-godess 'at best'.

The events you are recalling are from the Greyhawk novel, Queen of the Demonweb Pits by Paul Kidd, the third book in (what was apparently) a trilogy about those characters.

They weren't a trilogy exactly. The first novel, Against the Giants was based on a party of adventurers lead by a Fighter named Vlander. I forget the author. The novel wasn't very good, but it adhered pretty strictly to the modules. Paul Kidd's novels Descent into... and Queen of the Demonweb Pits are connected I believe and both feature Justicar and his pixie (or sprite?) friend.

Olgar Shiverstone · Jul 2, 2003

johnsemlak said:
They weren't a trilogy exactly. The first novel, Against the Giants was based on a party of adventurers lead by a Fighter named Vlander. I forget the author. The novel wasn't very good, but it adhered pretty strictly to the modules. Paul Kidd's novels Descent into... and [Queen of the Demonweb Pits[/i] are connected I believe and both feature Justicar and his pixie (or sprite?) friend.

The Paul Kidd trilogy is actually White Plume Mountain, Descent into the Depths, Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Don't know why WPM was the first of the three, but as "gaming fiction" goes, those three are pretty decent -- memorable characters and some entertaining humor -- the Justicar and pixie Escalla and company are priceless. Against the Giants the novel is pretty dry and dull in comparison. But hey, it's gaming fiction, not great fantasy literature.

ColonelHardisson · Jul 2, 2003

johnsemlak said:
Paul Kidd's novels Descent into... and [Queen of the Demonweb Pits[/i] are connected I believe and both feature Justicar and his pixie (or sprite?) friend.

His first was White Plume Mountain.