Scribe
Legend
What?
What you are stating here, is that Prison/Control, is the better play, than the multiple other avenues of gaining advantage and winning in Magic.
Is that what I'm to take away from this?
D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition
- Thread starter THEMNGMNT
- Start date
What?
What you are stating here, is that Prison/Control, is the better play, than the multiple other avenues of gaining advantage and winning in Magic.
Is that what I'm to take away from this?
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
I mean, counter/control hasn't not been the better play for a bit. You'll still get wins with it though, at least until everyone stops playing with you.
James Gasik
We don't talk about Pun-Pun
I was going to comment about this. 5e's Sleep was excellent design, and it bothered me that it wasn't used more. I was pretty bummed when 2024, rather than making more spells work this way, decided to change Sleep instead!
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Nah, dude. There is a lot of decision-making involved in high-level competitive magic play. The stochastic elements do limit the impact of skill, but over enough games, the more skilled player will win more games, and this is especially true in so-called “fair,” interactive Magic. “Winning is just a matter of net decking and having the money to afford the best cards” is the lament of the low to mid-tier player. Give them access to any cards they want and all the time they need to search through tournament reports and decklists, the top players will still win against them more often than not.
Scribe
Legend
I mean I played Control, if people are competitive, its just another deck. I'd rather play with and against it, than something like Burn/Aggro.
kigmatzomat
Legend
They gave the monsters a giant pile of hit points and yeah, people looked for non-hit point ways to win. They discouraged using damaging spells and then added auto-successes that work not only against control spells but all save-based events. So yeah, people spam the lowest level incapacitators as quickly as possible to burn through the auto-successes so their good stuff has a chance in round 2 or 3.
I've been advocating for Legendaries and hit points to be tied together. Legendary boss lose 25% of your hp? It loses 25% of its Legendary attacks. Did it use up 25% of its Legendary defenses? It use up 25% of its hit points. If we're going to do attrition, do attrition the whole way. Yeah, the Dragon saved vs Hold Monster, but it bled out the eyes. Did the rogue land a critical sneak attack with a Dragonslayer blade? Not only did it scream in pain, it lost the ability to use Wing Buffet.
Set the HP cost/threshold in the text of each Legendary power for the monster. It may be Attacks fade with hit point levels, while using Defenses incur hit point losses. You could add it as a parenthetical (25hp/-), (-/150hp) to be compact. Even better if you order the Legendaries by remaining hit points. It implicitly creates tactics ("Dragons use wing buffet as a combat opener because injuries in combat prevent its use later") and it makes the use of Legendary saves more impactful as a PC as the HP loss also hastens the loss of Legendary Attacks. At around 25% hp, the bosses should be non-Legendary versions of themselves.
Its like a wound system that only exists for the most powerful monsters. It creates a doom spiral, which should match pace with PCs making death saves. "Mostly dead" is a thing in 5e, and I think more PCs should experience it.
I've been advocating for Legendaries and hit points to be tied together. Legendary boss lose 25% of your hp? It loses 25% of its Legendary attacks. Did it use up 25% of its Legendary defenses? It use up 25% of its hit points. If we're going to do attrition, do attrition the whole way. Yeah, the Dragon saved vs Hold Monster, but it bled out the eyes. Did the rogue land a critical sneak attack with a Dragonslayer blade? Not only did it scream in pain, it lost the ability to use Wing Buffet.
Set the HP cost/threshold in the text of each Legendary power for the monster. It may be Attacks fade with hit point levels, while using Defenses incur hit point losses. You could add it as a parenthetical (25hp/-), (-/150hp) to be compact. Even better if you order the Legendaries by remaining hit points. It implicitly creates tactics ("Dragons use wing buffet as a combat opener because injuries in combat prevent its use later") and it makes the use of Legendary saves more impactful as a PC as the HP loss also hastens the loss of Legendary Attacks. At around 25% hp, the bosses should be non-Legendary versions of themselves.
Its like a wound system that only exists for the most powerful monsters. It creates a doom spiral, which should match pace with PCs making death saves. "Mostly dead" is a thing in 5e, and I think more PCs should experience it.
Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Depends which Netrunner. There was a game by that name in 1996 that’s long out of print, and there’s also Android Netrunner, a CCG (as opposed to a TCG - you buy the cards in complete expansions, more like a board game rather than in blind packs like baseball cards), which was first printed in 2012 and is still in print. I’ve only played the latter, but it’s quit fun!
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
If you mean like 52% instead of 48%, yea sure. If you mean like 67% vs 33% (with decks that generally fair evenly) then not in 1 million years.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
The spell list -really- needs to have a lot of the tradition cut out of it... but.
I don't think control spells are the real issue, there, so much as the structure of them being -so- stridently carried over from previous editions. Take "Hold Person" as an example.
You've got a long duration effect, you lock the target down completely, everyone gets to whup their butt without fear and with crits, etc. It's just -too- packed. And it does it all with a total of 4 mitigating factors:
1) Saving Throw.
A simple binary of "Yes, controlled" or "No, spell ends". There is no scenario in which this is a good design goal. There should always be levels of success to spells like this, perhaps even -gated- by the type of entity you're casting the spell on rather than a yes/no blip. I don't even mean humanoid vs dragon vs beast. I mean normal enemy versus Elite or Legendary or whatever term you wanna use. Make it take partial effect in some cases.
2) End of Turn Saves.
This is awful, in my opinion, on its face. In the best case scenario, the caster and their -entire- party act after the villain and everyone gets to take a full round of swats before they get a chance to save. Worst case? The caster's turn ends, the held target's turn begins, and they save at the end of their turn. All the spell did was go "No" to a single turn.
3) Concentration.
Great in theory, mildly annoying in play. But hey. If you hold the BBEG fighter, at least one of his minions can throw a pebble at you, deal 1 damage, and force you to make a DC 10 Con save or lose your spell. Exists both to make control spells and buff/debuff spells less common and more risky than they already are.
4) Legendary Saves
The great middle finger to any spell whatsoever.
So how do we make them better?
1) Variable Effect
Sure you could use saving throw degrees. But how about having controls -be- several levels of effect that impact different creatures to different degrees and in some different ways? Could base it on Proficiency Bonus difference between you and your target. If their proficiency bonus is 3 or more higher than your own, the spell has no effect, save or otherwise. (A nice 'brown trousers!' moment for the party). Proficiency 1-2 higher it has a lesser effect than full power, but it still works. Proficiency equal or -1 to your own? Totally normal effect of the spell. Proficiency -2 to you? BIGGER EFFECT. Proficiency -3 to you, or greater? You just stop that person from contributing, ever again. Might as well have reduced them to 0hp. No save, they're just -wrecked- by the spell. (Also good for a 'brown trouser' moment if the party tries to punch Strahd at level 1 and he just stops the entire group in their tracks with a dismissive gesture, finishes his monologue, and walks away.)
2) Start of Turn -CONTINUAL- Saves
Rather than the spell simply ending when they make the save on the end of their turn, they can roll at the start to see how badly it effects them. On a successful save, the spell is still in effect, but they can at least act to some degree. Hold Person is also less annoying to the player since, hey, maybe you'll still get to act on your turn instead of being locked out of the game, entirely. But hey, it's still annoying, so how about:
3) Spend your Action to End the Spell
You wanna break free from Hold Person? Spend an action to roll a saving throw that ends it in a dramatic fashion. Break the golden chains that bind you. Tear your way free of the vines and thorns. Overcome the psychic compulsion. Whatever it is, you take the time to specifically break and end it. Dramatic. Flavorful. Players -and- NPCs get to do it, which makes things more interesting.
4) Get Rid of Legendary Saves
You no longer need them.
Is it perfect? No. But it's better than what we've got.
I don't think control spells are the real issue, there, so much as the structure of them being -so- stridently carried over from previous editions. Take "Hold Person" as an example.
You've got a long duration effect, you lock the target down completely, everyone gets to whup their butt without fear and with crits, etc. It's just -too- packed. And it does it all with a total of 4 mitigating factors:
1) Saving Throw.
A simple binary of "Yes, controlled" or "No, spell ends". There is no scenario in which this is a good design goal. There should always be levels of success to spells like this, perhaps even -gated- by the type of entity you're casting the spell on rather than a yes/no blip. I don't even mean humanoid vs dragon vs beast. I mean normal enemy versus Elite or Legendary or whatever term you wanna use. Make it take partial effect in some cases.
2) End of Turn Saves.
This is awful, in my opinion, on its face. In the best case scenario, the caster and their -entire- party act after the villain and everyone gets to take a full round of swats before they get a chance to save. Worst case? The caster's turn ends, the held target's turn begins, and they save at the end of their turn. All the spell did was go "No" to a single turn.
3) Concentration.
Great in theory, mildly annoying in play. But hey. If you hold the BBEG fighter, at least one of his minions can throw a pebble at you, deal 1 damage, and force you to make a DC 10 Con save or lose your spell. Exists both to make control spells and buff/debuff spells less common and more risky than they already are.
4) Legendary Saves
The great middle finger to any spell whatsoever.
So how do we make them better?
1) Variable Effect
Sure you could use saving throw degrees. But how about having controls -be- several levels of effect that impact different creatures to different degrees and in some different ways? Could base it on Proficiency Bonus difference between you and your target. If their proficiency bonus is 3 or more higher than your own, the spell has no effect, save or otherwise. (A nice 'brown trousers!' moment for the party). Proficiency 1-2 higher it has a lesser effect than full power, but it still works. Proficiency equal or -1 to your own? Totally normal effect of the spell. Proficiency -2 to you? BIGGER EFFECT. Proficiency -3 to you, or greater? You just stop that person from contributing, ever again. Might as well have reduced them to 0hp. No save, they're just -wrecked- by the spell. (Also good for a 'brown trouser' moment if the party tries to punch Strahd at level 1 and he just stops the entire group in their tracks with a dismissive gesture, finishes his monologue, and walks away.)
2) Start of Turn -CONTINUAL- Saves
Rather than the spell simply ending when they make the save on the end of their turn, they can roll at the start to see how badly it effects them. On a successful save, the spell is still in effect, but they can at least act to some degree. Hold Person is also less annoying to the player since, hey, maybe you'll still get to act on your turn instead of being locked out of the game, entirely. But hey, it's still annoying, so how about:
3) Spend your Action to End the Spell
You wanna break free from Hold Person? Spend an action to roll a saving throw that ends it in a dramatic fashion. Break the golden chains that bind you. Tear your way free of the vines and thorns. Overcome the psychic compulsion. Whatever it is, you take the time to specifically break and end it. Dramatic. Flavorful. Players -and- NPCs get to do it, which makes things more interesting.
4) Get Rid of Legendary Saves
You no longer need them.
Is it perfect? No. But it's better than what we've got.
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