D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[TheSword]

I am annoyed by people who try to "fix" Legendary Resistance instead of fixing the "I win button" spells, got in at least one argument with a youtuber about it once

I do think have having solutions to combat situations that aren’t always death are not necessarily a bad thing.

Death is a ‘full stop’ while resilient sphere, sleep, hold person, charm monster are a ‘…’

 

[Minigiant]

Something like that should be in an optional book like Unearthed Arcana, like it was in 3e but WotC dialed back book production so much that there just isn't any room in the schedule for such a book. It's just not worth the effort as the cost/profit benefit has not been great back in 3e. Such optional rules are now the domain of 3rd party, better accept reality.

Something like this: Using Spheres Of Power - Spheres of Power Wiki

They made 2 options books and many monster books.

There was time to make monster who could resist control and optional rules for. monsters.

Because anything else has no place in the core D&D books.

Debatable.


Sounds like "I see a problem but I won't include the fix because reasons"

 

[Cergorach]

I recall a time when an alternate system (Psionics) was found in the AD&D core books. I don't see why an alternative would "have no place" in the core books.

With core books I mean PHB/DMG/MM, and as far as I remember there were no Psionics in any edition in those core books. They were always optional books that were often related to a specific setting like Dark Sun...

 

[Steampunkette]

All this does in principle is nerf lockdown spells even more, to the point of what's the point?

Ehhh... I disagree.

For starters: If I cast Hold Person on you and you get a saving throw at the start of your turn to resist it for that turn, at least it's still -active- on you, rather than being immediately resisted and ignored as if I hadn't cast it, a wasted turn and concentration.

So long as I maintain concentration, there's a chance it will effect you rather than it being a 'cast, they saved, try casting it again' thing. And to -actually- get rid of it, you have to spend an action to attempt a save. Which means the absolute -least- Hold Person can do is force your enemy to lose one action on their turn

If anything, that's a buff to the current Hold Person spell.

Further buffing it is the ability to more easily, and comprehensively, lockdown lower-level threats from the entire fight. Think of casting "Enthrall" while your proficiency modifier is 3 higher than the 20 kings guard who are coming to stop you while you're on your way to kick his butt. BAM. Out of action essentially permanently. No saves. Nothing. Just -done-. Rather than slogging through that fight.

Again, buff... or nerf against single, much more powerful, enemies in combat encounters. 'Cause not -every- tool is right for -every- job.

Sorry, but lockdown is and should be just that: lockdown. You're out of action, completely vulnerable, and dead unless your allies can carry the day.

That's no fun for the person locked down. And it can instantly trivialize otherwise important battles, making it anticlimactic at best.

Lockdown needs some variety in how it works rather than a simple 'He resists' or not.

 

[tetrasodium]

Not really because casters would get more slots per day.

Having more slots is entirely different from having them filled with spells that are relevant to the scenarios you find yourself in with the numbers desired. Back in pre-4e editions where vancian casting/prep was the norm it was normal and almost expected for casters to finish an adventuring day and go into a rest with a significant portion of their spell slots unused. When you've only got one cast prepared of an ace in the hole spell it's a big risk to cast it uselessly against a monster with high sr or a monster that doesn't require the big guns when you might need it later. If you have two or three of that spell prepared instead of just one that's one or two other spells that you could not prepare. Neovancian is prep all of them and make YOLO the mantra for what to cast however often you please.


Casters in 5e have far more effective spell slots because of their ability to slot in any prepared spell into any slot of equal or greater level without needing to resort to tricks like taking a metamagic feat to prepare a daily driver spell like web at +1 slot level then a second to prep at +2 or both together at +3. The caster didn't need a widened extended cast of a spell so much as they wanted to upcast various spells into higher slot levels they have lessened for

 

[Zardnaar]

So if they can't do damage and they can't cast save-or-suck (which includes anti-buffs), what's left?

Buffing allies? Boring boring boring.
Divinations? Should be doing that before combat, not during.
Summoning? Yeah, let's make this long combat take longer by adding more idiots to the mix.
Illusions? What's the point, as they too have been nerfed into uselessness.

Put more debuffs into the game. They require attack rolls or no saves.

Tougher monsters wouldn't be universal.

Also you can you know buff allies, use spells like magic missile, summon stuff, emanations or manipulate the terrain.

 

[Alzrius]

With core books I mean PHB/DMG/MM, and as far as I remember there were no Psionics in any edition in those core books.

I'll refer you to the table of contents for the AD&D 1E PHB:

 

[Minigiant]

Having more slots is entirely different from having them filled with spells that are relevant to the scenarios you find yourself in with the numbers desired. Back in pre-4e editions where vancian casting/prep was the norm it was normal and almost expected for casters to finish an adventuring day and go into a rest with a significant portion of their spell slots unused. When you've only got one cast prepared of an ace in the hole spell it's a big risk to cast it uselessly against a monster with high sr or a monster that doesn't require the big guns when you might need it later. If you have two or three of that spell prepared instead of just one that's one or two other spells that you could not prepare. Neovancian is prep all of them and make YOLO the mantra for what to cast however often you please

Meant that you'd fix one problem just you enhance another problem.


D&D should have supported Vancian Spells but have other types of Magic and nonmagic: Maneuvers, Techniques, Weapon Masteries, Infusions, Invocations.

Barely any of them are revisited. And only drips and dips back in.

Whereas on the monster side... It's most just Legendary Resistance.
Not spell immunity. Not just REALLY HIGH saving bonuses.

Imagine if there was a monster that just had a crazy high Mental saves?

WOTC more or less gambled that 3PP would do it..


...The 3PPs mostly didn't do it.

 

[tetrasodium]

Ehhh... I disagree.

For starters: If I cast Hold Person on you and you get a saving throw at the start of your turn to resist it for that turn, at least it's still -active- on you, rather than being immediately resisted and ignored as if I hadn't cast it, a wasted turn and concentration.

So long as I maintain concentration, there's a chance it will effect you rather than it being a 'cast, they saved, try casting it again' thing. And to -actually- get rid of it, you have to spend an action to attempt a save. Which means the absolute -least- Hold Person can do is force your enemy to lose one action on their turn

If anything, that's a buff to the current Hold Person spell.

Further buffing it is the ability to more easily, and comprehensively, lockdown lower-level threats from the entire fight. Think of casting "Enthrall" while your proficiency modifier is 3 higher than the 20 kings guard who are coming to stop you while you're on your way to kick his butt. BAM. Out of action essentially permanently. No saves. Nothing. Just -done-. Rather than slogging through that fight.

Again, buff... or nerf against single, much more powerful, enemies in combat encounters. 'Cause not -every- tool is right for -every- job.

That's no fun for the person locked down. And it can instantly trivialize otherwise important battles, making it anticlimactic at best.

Lockdown needs some variety in how it works rather than a simple 'He resists' or not.

Hold person was never gated by resistance till 5e∆. In 3.x it was gated first by "is the target even a valid creature type for the spell?" Followed by "does it have appropriate SR for the level of the game(mm even had a BTC entry for it

∆ once again, 4e was ADEU and I don't really know or think it particularly matters what it did but wouldn't be surprised if it was gated by being a daily or something

@Minigiant you didn't specify the problem in question and I don't see merit i. Guessing. Back in 115 I wrote about how vancian prep &SR limited available spells and encourages players to proactively down shift spell choices to spells more likely to encourage teamwork than monster melting solo output just this morning. I think that had value far in excess of your not quite clear "more spell slots" potential problem.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but you could as an option, after a failed saving throw, have the creature lose a Legendary Action to overcome the spell (as part of a Legendary Resistance).
It works well in the fiction and for the players.

Separate to the above, but somewhat connected -
In one of my recent sessions, the PC sorcerer pulled out a Power Word Stun scroll on an ancient wyrm.
The dragon was not at the required hit point mark, but I felt the usage of such a powerful resource required something more than just - "the dragon shrugs off the 7th level spell" - so I had the spell take affect, the PCs pounded on it for a round (essentially killing the wyrm), BUT because I had been lenient with the Power Word Stun's requirements on the dragon, I decided it would be fair just before its death that it would use up a Legendary Resistance to have it come out of the stun effect and activate its Mythic Power.
The combat was better for it.