D&D 5E (2024) Tuning big single creatures into multi-part-creatures.

[Charlaquin]

I do not think it is the total number of creatures, but the number of statblocks that are enough different that is the problem.

I can see that being the case for some. These are pretty simple stat blocks though, so personally, I wouldn’t mind.

 

[mellored]

I could see that AoE effects can indeed hit all parts, but they inflict only half damage. So if you have 3 or 4 parts, AoEs are still in sum more useful than not using AoEs, and they would be better than if it was just a single enemy. But also not excessively so.

I leave it up to the DM to determine if the AOE actual overlaps with multiple parts

I agree that AoE should be more effective than 1 target, but less effective than hitting all of them. How about

Half the non-Incapacitated parts (rounded up)
Monsters choice. Also something about the number of 5' cubes covered.

I.e.
A red dragon blasted with a cone of cold and he puts his wings and tail out to protect his head.
When it only has 2 parts left, only part 1 takes damage.
Cloud of Daggers only hits 1 part.

That's less saves to roll as well.

How does prone work when you prone a single part?

You can't knock a creature's head prone, but instead that part might loose the ability to use reactions

I would just leave it knocking the part prone. Same as any other effect. Yea, it sounds a bit odd to say a head is "prone" but not worth the effort to fix IMO.
Though "immune to prone" would also work.

Also, I split movement up. So grappling a Dragon's wings will have it fall, but it's claws can still move.

How do forced movement/teleport/banishments work?

since the target was 1 creature (banishment) I had it affect the whole creature

i would say you need to hit all living parts, or nothing happens. Weaken it first, or get a bunch of guys to grapple each part to trap it.

 

[mellored]

I can see that being the case for some. These are pretty simple stat blocks though, so personally, I wouldn’t mind.

do not think it is the total number of creatures, but the number of statblocks that are enough different that is the problem.

Good points.
And yea, these generally all have the same stats and each one is simple. It should be doing the same amount as the current one, just spread out.

But I think using bloodied keeps the feeling well enough. So 5 seems good for my example IMO.

Also, I think it depends on if the creature will show up with others.

But nothing stopping ooze of annihilation from having 100 parts that turn into their own blob when cut off. Or a beholder with 10 eye stalks.

 

[Deset Gled]

Edit: 3 to 5 parts sounds about right IMO.

Number of parts can also reflect size. 2 or 3 for your Adult dragon, 5 for a Very Old one, 9 for a Great Wyrm.

i would say you need to hit all living parts, or nothing happens. Weaken it first, or get a bunch of guys to grapple each part to trap it.

Follow up discussion: how do you communicate with characters (not players) when you need multiple instances of a spell to affect the monster? Is it solely based on size, and magic users are trained that way? Is it lore about certain monsters? Just a game thing that you don't worry about in character?

I'm thinking the characters need to meet up with some sort of threshold guardians that teach them about how spells interact with different types of mythical beasts before they encounter this in the wild.

 

[the Jester]

I have one creature that works like that, sort of, but it's huge- a shark big enough to eat entire islands in a single bite. It's really an exercise in theory; I have never used it, but love the idea, as I think it would be a challenge for even a super high level group. Here's my version:

ISLAND SHARK

Source: Homebrew.

An island shark is one of the largest monsters known. It is a type of gargantuan, but even for one of those monsters, the island shark is truly on another scale. It is so big that it can consume an entire small island in a single bite. When an island shark appears in a region, the blood of the people of that region runs cold, for all know that the island shark's voracious appetites are difficult to fulfill, and the monster is so large as to be almost impossible to drive off.

Too Big to Believe. An island shark is larger than entire cities that it threatens. Its maw gapes so wide that it can swallow entire islands and everything on them. The monster is so large that it is impossible to fight it as a single creature.

Instead, driving off the beast requires defeating several of its body parts: one eye, its mouth, its dorsal fin, and one gill. If enough damage can be inflicted to all of these parts of its body in quick succession, it can be driven off. Even while this is being done, most creatures are so small that the shark doesn't actually engage them in combat; however, merely being close to such a behemoth is dangerous, as it continually moves, creating intense currents and other dangerous effects, bumping into nearby things as it moves, etc. Its skin is rough and abrasive, so its merest touch is dangerous.

Otherwise, an island shark will eventually feed on a land mass. It is almost twenty miles long, with a gaping maw almost five miles across. It takes about a day for the shark to take a bite, but when it does, it destroys an area of the land mass about five miles in diameter and roughly spherical in shape, killing or swallowing whole every living thing on it.

An Internal Nightmare. Creatures swallowed might be able to escape, but the island shark's belly and innards almost always contains its own ecosystem full of predators, including smaller sharks, aquatic oozes such as bloodbloater swarms, blue slimes, flotsam oozes, and sometimes even communities of aquatic folk such as sahuagin, locathah, mermaids, or avanti).

Often, the interior of an island shark has some sort of terrible monster that serves as an apex predator. Even something as large as a giant shark, ooze octopus, or the like might hunt the flooded passages within an island shark.

A Lair for Mighty Recluses. There have been several occasions where powerful individuals intentionally got swallowed in order to lair within an island shark. Whether seeking isolation or adventure, creatures such as a shou lung, dragon turtle, lich, and a renegade githyanki knight of surpassing ability have hidden themselves away inside of an island shark. By doing so, they render themselves accessible only to those daring enough to face the island shark and to accept the risk involved in being swallowed.

Island Shark Treasure. An island shark doesn't collect treasure, but its gut can contain entire civilizations' worth of loot. Such treasure is inevitably taken up by the creatures that live inside the shark, however.

Creatures living inside an island shark get a +25% bonus to their chances of having treasure. In addition, they have double the normal amount of treasure.

Island Shark Eye
Gargantuan Beast (Gargantuan, Shark), always unaligned
Armor Class 15 (natural armor)
Hit Points 512 (25d20+250)
Speed 0 ft., swim 90 ft.

STR 30 (+10), DEX 10 (+0), CON 30 (+10),
INT 3 (-4), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 6 (-2)

Condition Immunities charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious
Senses blindsight 100 miles., passive Perception
Languages -
Challenge 23 (50,000 xp) Prof +7


Part of a Greater Whole. The eye is but a part of a truly gigantic monster. They eye fills a circular space 1,500' in diameter, behind which the rest of the shark effectively forms a landscape.

If the eye is reduced to 0 hit points, it shuts, and that part of the island shark is defeated. Only if one eye, one gill, its mouth, and its fin are all defeated within 24 hours can the island shark be driven away.

Water Breathing. The shark can breathe only water.

ACTIONS

Bump. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 20 ft., up to three targets in a 30' cube. Hit: 54 (8d10+10) bludgeoning damage.

Tear. The eye emits a salty, caustic tear that is a 20' radius sphere. The tear moves 90' away from the eye. Any creature it touches as it moves must make a DC 25 Dexterity save, suffering 90 (20d8) acid damage on a failure or half that on a success.

Blink. The eye blinks, causing tremendous currents. Each creature within 120' of the eye must make a DC 25 Strength save. If it fails, it suffers 46 (8d8+10) bludgeoning damage and moves 50' in a random direction. If it succeeds, it takes half damage and moves 15' in a random direction.

Island Shark Fin
Gargantuan Beast (Gargantuan, Shark), always unaligned
Armor Class 20 (natural armor)
Hit Points 1,025 (50d20+500)
Speed 0 ft., swim 90 ft.

STR 30 (+10), DEX 10 (+0), CON 30 (+10),
INT 3 (-4), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 6 (-2)

Condition Immunities charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious
Senses blindsight 100 miles., passive Perception
Languages -
Challenge 29 (135,000 xp) Prof +9

Part of a Greater Whole. The fin is but a part of a truly gigantic monster. The fin is a triangle with sides roughly measuring 1 mile each, beneath or above which the rest of the shark effectively forms a landscape.

If the fin is reduced to 0 hit points, it stops moving, and that part of the island shark is defeated. Only if one eye, one gill, its mouth, and its fin are all defeated within 24 hours can the island shark be driven away.

Water Breathing. The shark can breathe only water.

ACTIONS

Slam. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 100 ft., up to three targets in a 30' cube. Hit: 65 (10d10+10) bludgeoning damage.

Abrasive Skin. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 20 ft., each creature in a 30' cube adjacent to the shark. Hit: 46 (8d8+10) slashing damage.

Stir Currents. Each creature within 60' of the fin must make a DC 27 Strength save, suffering 35 (10d6) bludgeoning damage on a failure or half that on a success. A creature that fails its save by 5 or more is also stunned until the end of the fin's next turn.

Island Shark Gill
Gargantuan Beast (Gargantuan, Shark), always unaligned
Armor Class 18 (natural armor)
Hit Points 615 (30d20+300)
Speed 0 ft., swim 90 ft.

STR 30 (+10), DEX 10 (+0), CON 30 (+10),
INT 3 (-4), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 6 (-2)

Condition Immunities charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious
Senses blindsight 100 miles., passive Perception
Languages -
Challenge 25 (75,000 xp) Prof +8

Part of a Greater Whole. The gill is but a part of a truly gigantic monster. They gill forms a line one mile long and 100' wide, behind which the rest of the shark effectively forms a landscape.

If the gill is reduced to 0 hit points, it stops breathing, and that part of the island shark is defeated. Only if one eye, one gill, its mouth, and its fin are all defeated within 24 hours can the island shark be driven away.

Water Breathing. The shark can breathe only water.

ACTIONS

Bump. Melee Weapon Attack: +18 to hit, reach 20 ft., up to three targets in a 30' cube. Hit: 54 (8d10+10) bludgeoning damage.

Inhale (recharges when the shark uses Exhale). Each creature within 120' of the gill must make a DC 26 Strength save, suffering 55 (10d10) bludgeoning damage on a failure or half that on a success. A creature that fails is also pulled 60' toward the gill, while a creature that succeeds is pulled 15' toward the gill. A creature that ends this turn within 5' of the gill suffers an extra 28 (8d6) slashing damage.

Exhale (recharges when the shark uses Inhale). Each creature within 120' of the gill must make a DC 26 Strength save, suffering 55 (10d10) bludgeoning damage on a failure or half that on a success. A creature that fails is also pushed 60' away from the gill, while a creature that succeeds is pushed 15' away from the gill.

Cloud of Mucus. A 20' radius sphere of mucus emerges from the gill and drifts 30' away from the gill. Any creature that is touched by the cloud must make a DC 26 Dexterity save, becoming restrained, caught by and moving with the cloud on a failure. While restrained in this way, the creature can't breathe. The cloud lasts 1 minute. At the start of each of the gill's turns, it drifts 30' further from the gill.

A restrained creature can escape by using an action to make a DC 26 Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.

Island Shark Mouth
Gargantuan Beast (Gargantuan, Shark), always unaligned
Armor Class 18 (natural armor)
Hit Points 1,025 (50d20+500)
Speed 0 ft., swim 90 ft.

STR 30 (+10), DEX 10 (+0), CON 30 (+10),
INT 3 (-4), WIS 12 (+1), CHA 6 (-2)

Condition Immunities charmed, deafened, exhaustion, frightened, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious

Senses blindsight 100 miles., passive Perception

Languages -

Challenge 31 (175,000 xp) Prof +9

Part of a Greater Whole. The mouth is but a part of a truly gigantic monster. The gaping maw makes up an oval roughly 2 miles across and 1 mile high, a 200' wide rim around which can be effectively attacked., behind which the rest of the shark effectively forms a landscape.

If the mouth is reduced to 0 hit points, it shuts, and that part of the island shark is defeated. Only if one eye, one gill, its mouth, and its fin are all defeated within 24 hours can the island shark be driven away.

Water Breathing. The shark can breathe only water.

ACTIONS

Tooth Scrape. Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 50', up to three targets in a 30' cube. Hit: 88 (12d12+10) slashing damage. If this attack scores a critical hit, the severity increases by 2d12.

Poison Breath. A 100' radius cloud of foul, poisonous gas forms in a space adjacent to the mouth, including underwater. Creatures in the cloud must make DC 27 Constitution saves, suffering 72 (16d8) poison damage on a failure or half that on a success.

Saliva Spray. A spray of caustic saliva splatters in a 90' cone emerging from the mouth. Each creature in the spray must make a DC 27 Dexterity save, suffering 60 (11d10) acid damage on a failure or half that on a success. A creature that fails its save by 5 or more puts 1 wear point each on 3 objects that it wears or carries.

REACTIONS

Rumble (1/day). When the mouth becomes blooded, it emits a tremendous noise. Each creature within 300' must make a DC 27 Con save, taking 130 (20d12) thunder damage on a failure or half that on a success.

 

[dave2008]

i would say you need to hit all living parts, or nothing happens. Weaken it first, or get a bunch of guys to grapple each part to trap it.

I can't justify that in my mind, but if it works for you go for it! To me 1 creature = 1 creature even if it acts mechanically like three.

 

[aco175]

Am I the only one thinking of this? Works for a construct or maybe an ooze where you 'kill' the big guy and it splinters. Maybe when all together it has sections like the OP is talking about.

 

[mellored]

Is it solely based on size, and magic users are trained that way? Is it lore about certain monsters? Just a game thing that you don't worry about in character?

some of each. I guess.
"Roll an Int check".
"It's big enough to attack just it's leg"

I can't justify that in my mind, but if it works for you go for it! To me 1 creature = 1 creature even if it acts mechanically like three.

just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that only part of it teleports.

You need to teleport/banish/push all parts together, or it doesn't go. When your the size of 5 creatures, you need power to banish 5 creatures.

With dead parts being treated as luggage.

Which isn't that different from your suggestion of each part gets a save. You statistically can't banish 5 parts (5 saves) at once, so you still need to weaken it first. Except you don't need to upcast banishment.

 

[dave2008]

Follow up discussion: how do you communicate with characters (not players) when you need multiple instances of a spell to affect the monster? Is it solely based on size, and magic users are trained that way? Is it lore about certain monsters? Just a game thing that you don't worry about in character?

I'm thinking the characters need to meet up with some sort of threshold guardians that teach them about how spells interact with different types of mythical beasts before they encounter this in the wild.

I think that is a valid approach. I also think it is ok to let the PCs just figure it out. In my mind, the players should assume a creature of this size and stature is a cut above and something more like a riddle they need to figure out rather than a target to blast away at. So they either do research prior ro come into the encounter knowing things may not work like normal and they should have contingencies planned.

 

[dave2008]

some of each. I guess.
"Roll an Int check".
"It's big enough to attack just it's leg"

just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that only part of it teleports.

You need to teleport/banish/push all parts together, or it doesn't go. When your the size of 5 creatures, you need power to banish 5 creatures.

With dead parts being treated as luggage.

Which isn't that different from your suggestion of each part gets a save. You statistically can't banish 5 parts (5 saves) at once, so you still need to weaken it first. Except you don't need to upcast banishment.

I agree with you partially (I think). Teleport notes the target must be Large or smaller and forcecage has a size, etc. So those type of spells and effects would need to cover all parts IMO. However, banishment targets 1 creature. To my mind a creature in parts is still one creature.

EDIT: Perhaps I misunderstood. I you saying the spell should be upcast with each additionally level covering an additional part? That makes some sense too.