D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[tetrasodium]

Dredging this back to its origin though, this is a situation that would have complete disengagement because there's just, nothing you can do.

In a day and age when everyone has a computer I could do as you say, waste my time updating a character sheet that is, frankly, probably not in much need of an update given VTTs let you do that and we probably on one. Orrr I can just open the tiny computer that practically everyone has on them and do anything else.

Being stun locked in WoW is excruciating for any more than 5 seconds, and at the 30 second mark you're begging for a dispell. If I'm having to put up with upwards of 10 minutes not having any prospect of playing the game like in the example that gave this of "Well, I guess i'm just running around like a headless chicken", I'm getting the phone out and playing Limbus Company because a Mirror Dungeon is worth more of my time than sitting around and doing sweet nothing.

There's only so much attention someone can pay in a situation where they've basically been told to go and do something else


D&D is not a sport. A referee does not make something a spot. There were certainly attempts to try and make D&D a sport but the fact that contest modules aren't a thing any more shows how that went.

I do more sport in being a world record holding speedrunner, and that's just me playing an old video game

Everyone plays wow in real time simultaneously. That's not a particularly valid comparison given that it's not uncommon for a 5e player's next turn to be ten or more minutes away even without stuns. The 5e focus is too much on the impact of things like a stun and not enough on how 5e itself inflated the amount of time spent on all rounds★ or what enjoyable aspects of play are lost by focusing gameplay on zero consequence of action no plausible chance of failure

In 5e you view things like updating your character sheet or recalculating your inventory weight as "waste my time" because the system itself removed the mechanical hooks that made doing that anything else and failed to support gms with variant rules to provide those mechanical hooks as optional,/variant drops in rules. It doesn't mean that being capable of getting stunned in play with plausibility is bad design, it means that the design is reprehensible in how it blames the gm for a failure in either direction

★compared to rounds in older editions

 

[Bae'zel]

What's the derogatory comment?

The "5E is fine crowd" and WotC glazers push back instinctively. They dont believe people when they say XYZ can do this.

Until they see it in play.

"WotC glazers" clearly implies mindless fans or defenders of the company no matter what. "Push back instinctively" also implying mindless resistance to opposing viewpoints or criticism.

 

[Zardnaar]

"WotC glazers" clearly implies mindless fans or defenders of the company no matter what. "Push back instinctively" also implying mindless resistance to opposing viewpoints or criticism.

I use it because people will know what im referring to.

Doomers the reverse gets thrown around alot.

I'm in neither camp relentless positivity or negativity is ultimately boring.

 

[Remathilis]

I use it because people will know what im referring to..

And people know what I'm referring to when I reference grognards who can't accept the game has moved past 1986, but that probably isn't a good way to get them to listen.

 

[Zardnaar]

And people know what I'm referring to when I reference grognards who can't accept the game has moved past 1986, but that probably isn't a good way to get them to listen.

Term hrognard doesn't offend me.

Games always going to evolve and change. Whether or not you like it is up to your and the grognards are entitled to their opinion.

They're also so rare they may as well not exist. At least the stereotypical ones.

 

[Minigiant]

Assuming they expected anything, when the game was dying before 5e and if 5e flopped, it would be no more D&D, I somehow doubt it.

5e was designed to be people-pleaser, all according to the surveys and playtester voice, with huge emphasis on appealing to old-school fanbase. And it was the old-school fanbase that said they do not want dynamic bosses and they want Fighter to be a moron who can only swing their bade because they "just want to play simple sword & broad". Funnily enough, it was the first demographic to turn away from D&D once it became popular with the mainstream.

5e was designed with an open skeleton for an old school fanbase with an assumption that 3PP would produce modules for 3e fans, 4e fans, and story forced game fans

It didn't happen.

 

[Minigiant]

My opinion is a tad more nuanced than that. I think most of these issues are only problems for certain tables with certain types of players. If you happen to run into those players, you'll see them as problems, and if you don't, you won't

My opinion is that 5e followed the flaw of 3e where it was designed around the new players, poor players, and other under optimized players.

So once players gained experience and learned the game, they had to form a gentleman's agreement to not meaningfully optimize building or playing unless you were playing a weak PC.

It doesn't take much to learn major single entities were vulnerable to control spells.

It was an agreement to not control down every Boss monster.

 

[Scribe]

And people know what I'm referring to when I reference grognards who can't accept the game has moved past 1986, but that probably isn't a good way to get them to listen.

Sure, but do people still use it and by and large get a pass when doing so?

 

[Stormonu]

My opinion is that 5e followed the flaw of 3e where it was designed around the new players, poor players, and other under optimized players.

So once players gained experience and learned the game, they had to form a gentleman's agreement to not meaningfully optimize building or playing unless you were playing a weak PC.

It doesn't take much to learn major single entities were vulnerable to control spells.

It was an agreement to not control down every Boss monster.

Sorry, I don't want a game organized around optimizers and tryhards. I want a relaxed game that can't be "solved" and is more interested in giving me the tools to tell a fun and interesting story. A mix of mechanics and not-mechanics that aid those stories, not "keeping players in line".

 

[Not a Decepticon]

5e was designed with an open skeleton for an old school fanbase with an assumption that 3PP would produce modules for 3e fans, 4e fans, and story forced game fans

It didn't happen.

Do you have proof of this assumption on dev's side at all? Because unless they said this somewhere, this is armchair psychology and quite frankly, sounds irrational.