D&D 5E (2024) Circle Casting is gonna break a lot of games

[ECMO3]

Not accurate. It only requires one helper to maintain concentration. So you could cast spirit guardians, have someone else maintain concentration, and cast blade barrier.

Taking 2 rounds to do it and probably losing some spirit guardian damage and a ton of fighter damage during the first round in the process.

for example, an Eldritch Knight, who is proficient in Con saves and is hard to hit (being a fighter and all), who could never cast a spell like spirit guardians or blade barrier, is now the one maintaining concentration on it as the main caster casts another big concentration spell.

An Eldritch Knight who wasted a 9th (or higher) level attack action and a 1st level slot to support your spell, and I would not say a class who is a typical front line melee combatant is going to be the best pick for reliable concentration even when they have Cosntitution proficiency.

It kinda nerfs the whole reason why the concentration mechanic exists in the first place.

Trading an action for concentration is not typically a good trade.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Hey now, Kender have nothing to do with these stupidly broken Circle Casting rules. That's s&%t's a Toril/Fae'run thing. Ain't no damn spell weave bulls%$t in my Dragonlance games regardless of how much WotC tries to crowbar it into all of their other settings.

The thing is, Kender were a result of worldbuilding based off the game rules, with Tracy Hickman deciding to give them traits of curiosity and not understanding private property as a justification for Hafling's in-game affinity to thief class, wanting in-universe explanation for game rules. Similiarly one of Legends novels had an utterly bizarre tangential exposition dump about historical and mythological reasons why wizards can use daggers, just because it was a weapon allowed to them in the game.

 

[ECMO3]

That's not accurate. We're not talking Aoe with Earth tremor. That's not how it's written. It's written as such:

"You cause a tremor in the ground within range. Each creature other than you in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d6

bludgeoning damage and is knocked prone. If the ground in that area is loose earth or stone, it becomes difficult terrain until cleared, with each 5-foot-diameter portion requiring at least 1 minute to clear by hand."

Ok I think I was reading the version from the TOEE Player's companion. But I still don't see this as a big deal. With 2 1st level slots and 2 actions you can do 3.5 damage to those who fail their saving throw?

How is this gamebreaking?

nce again, a helper doesn't need to cast spells. They can be out of spell slots and still do shared concentration or buffing AoE, etc.

Buffing the AOE requires them to use a slot:

"Each secondary caster contributing to the spell must expend a spell slot (no action required). If the spell fails, these spell slots aren’t expended."

 

[Sacrosanct]

Taking 2 rounds to do it and probably losing some spirit guardian damage and a ton of fighter damage during the first round in the process.

It doesn't take 2 rounds to do it. It's all in the same round, taking effect on the initiative roll of the last helper.

An Eldritch Knight who wasted a 9th (or higher) level attack action and a 1st level slot to support your spell, and I would not say a class who is a typical front line melee combatant is going to be the best pick for reliable concentration even when they have Cosntitution proficiency.

if the EK is not in range, or any other number of reasons, it's totally plausible. Bumping an Aoe spell from 15 ft radius to 25 ft radius can be a very big deal--much more impactful than an attack roll or two.

Trading an action for concentration is not typically a good trade.

Depends.

I don't know anyone who casts Spirit Guardians for a 1-2 round combat anyway. Or really any concentration spell. Those are typically for longer combats.

If I'm a bard and none of my spells aren't really suited for the combat, or I'm out of spells, is it better for me to cast a 2d6 cantrip at a single target? Or is it better for me to spend my action to move that spirit guardians from 28 total squares to 79? With each creature from those additional 51 squares taking damage?

 

[ECMO3]

An eldritch knight can't normally concentration on a spirit guardians or blade barrier spell
A first level caster can't normally concentrate on a 5th level spell
A caster out of spell slots can't normally concentrate on any spell.

All of these things allow the main caster to cast another concentration spell. It can allow several powerful spells to be going off at the same time when they normally couldn't. That's big.

It is not because of the actions.

An Eldritch Knight at a level that a Cleric can cast Blade Barrier is a melee powerhouse and if Spirit guardians is doing enough damage to be significant then that EK can take down enemies in a single turn.

these are not insignificant things that you keep glossing over.

They are not insiginificant, they are just weak. They are fun and cool (depending on the players), but less powerful than other options generally.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ok I think I was reading the version from the TOEE Player's companion. But I still don't see this as a big deal. With 2 1st level slots and 2 actions you can do 3.5 damage to those who fail their saving throw?

How is this gamebreaking?



Buffing the AOE requires them to use a slot:

"Each secondary caster contributing to the spell must expend a spell slot (no action required). If the spell fails, these spell slots aren’t expended."

But again, earth tremor isn't buffing the Aoe. It's range, which does not require a slot. With this earth tremor combo, which can be done by a 1st level party, they can wipe low level encounters completely. I keep mentioning the Phandelver example. Just send in the mage and a buddy, earth tremor out to 1000 feet, do it twice, goblin caves largely taken care of. Might be a few stragglers, but easily dealt with.

Also, for AoE, the extra slot can be any slot. So a 1st level slot to augment a much higher level spell. That's hardly a tough thing to do.

 

[Sacrosanct]

They are not insiginificant, they are just weak. They are fun and cool (depending on the players), but less powerful than other options generally.

The math proves otherwise. A 10ft increase in radius for a 15-ft radius spell doesn't just increase the size by 66%. That's not how area works. You could easily be doing 3d8 (half on a save) to a half dozen or more creatures than would otherwise be impacted. Do the math. Does a fighter, even with extra attacks, do the same amount? Noting that the fighter won't hit with all attacks while the extra SG still does damage on a made save? And the fighter gets their attacks the next round while SG is still going on, expanded, doing extra damage each round?

 

[ECMO3]

It doesn't take 2 rounds to do it. It's all in the same round, taking effect on the initiative roll of the last helper.

No it is not always in the same round, given that fighters typically have higher dexterity than Clerics, more often than not the spell will not complete until the second round, because the Cleric will start it after the Fighter's turn and the fighter will complete it in round 2 ... assuming they stayed inside 30 feet for two full rounds.

Even when the Cleric goes first and it is one round it will be uncommon that they are right next to each other where there will not be a gap.

if the EK is not in range, or any other number of reasons, it's totally plausible. Bumping an Aoe spell from 15 ft radius to 25 ft radius can be a very big deal--much more impactful than an attack roll or two.

Are we bumping the AOE or allowing the Fighter to concentrate on something else? Increasing the AOE on spirit guardians or letting the EK concentrate on SG so the Cleric can cast something else in the second round is rarely going to be better than the EK attacking. Not never better, but rarely better.

Depends.

Sure it does depend and there are situations it will be better, just most of the time it wll be weak compared to other options.

I don't know anyone who casts Spirit Guardians for a 1-2 round combat anyway. Or really any concentration spell.

No it is only 1-2 rounds after you get it turned on. Average combat is generally about 3 rounds, less at high levels.

If I'm a bard and none of my spells aren't really suited for the combat, or I'm out of spells, is it better for me to cast a 2d6 cantrip at a single target?

Sure it is situationally better, just not generally better.

Or is it better for me to spend my action to move that spirit guardians from 28 total squares to 79? With each creature from those additional 51 squares taking damage?

No usually. Increasing the AOE does require a slot and Tasha's Hideous Laughter or Command is going to be worth more than those 51 squares usually.

Heck with Command you can actually force the enemy into that AOE!

 

[mellored]

No they are not. In fact, the most common example is the range extending issue, which only requires one additional caster. Earth tremor to wipe out all low level creatures only requires 1. A 35-ft radius spirit guardians only requires 2. Nearly unbreakable concentration only requires 2-3. Etc. Only the 24 hour long spells requires several, but that's just one part of the issue. All the other issues do not require more than 1-3 helpers.

Just FYI, you can only have 1 effect at a time.

 

[ECMO3]

I am starting a 5-plyaer 1-20 Forgotten Realms campaign in 12 days, we are using everything from HOFR. At least two of us are playing casters..

I will report back on how gamebreaking this is in actual play. I expect it to be not gamebreaking at all.