D&D General Mike Mearls says control spells are ruining 5th Edition

[Distracted DM]

Not HP.

Save bonus. Monsters in 2014 have terrible saving throw bonuses. They get better in 2024 as a stealth fix.

I didn't say to increase HP, I don't think?
We can agree on the 2014 monster saves being super bad. What did they do to 2024 saves to make them better? Did they give most monsters save proficiencies?

In designing 5e14 I get why they'd want monsters to fail saves- it sucks if your hold monster spell fails! Though it seems like it was primarily casters that were putting out saving throw powers originally, and there were almost no items that'd put casting save stats into the 20s, so there were limits to how high a wizard or cleric's DCs could get.
When I switched over to A5E suddenly all martials can get powerful maneuvers and the DC is based on strength or dex, a belt of giant strength can really make saves, especially INT saves, impossible for monsters to make

 

[Minigiant]

I didn't say to increase HP, I don't think?
We can agree on the 2014 monster saves being super bad. What did they do to 2024 saves to make them better? Did they give most monsters save proficiencies?

In designing 5e14 I get why they'd want monsters to fail saves- it sucks if your hold monster spell fails! Though it seems like it was primarily casters that were putting out saving throw powers originally, and there were almost no items that'd put casting save stats into the 20s, so there were limits to how high a wizard or cleric's DCs could get.
When I switched over to A5E suddenly all martials can get powerful maneuvers and the DC is based on strength or dex, a belt of giant strength can really make saves, especially INT saves, impossible for monsters to make

Because like 1e, 2e, and 3e, 5e focus too hard on how everything looks at low levels.

Once you're numbers get better because they need is a progression based game and you start doing them often you realize that it's bad to have these strong effects happen so reliably.

 

[Minigiant]

Really there are 5* kind of bonuses in D&D for the d20:

1. Ability score modifier A
2. Level base bonus L
3. Class based bonus C
4. Magic item based bonus M
5. Situational and circumstantial bonuses S

What 5e did was

1. Replaced 5 with advantage and disadvantage.
2. Made 4 optional and a complete layer the entire system.
3. 3 is usually static at either a +2 for most people and stacked on your level bonus.
4. Equalized 1 & 2 somewhat:
   1. your bonus from ability score goes -1 to +5
   2. you bonus from level (proficiency) goes +2 to +6. Which is +0 to +4 with the initial +2 class bonus removed.
5. Attack rolls are a d20 plus a sum of those three bonuses versus some value between 10 and 20.
   • d20+ A+C+ L vs 10-20
6. Saving throws was usually a challenge between a d20 Plus your ability score modifier versus 8 + all three of those bonuses.
   • 2014: d20 + A vs 8+ A+C+ L
   • 2024: d20 + A +C +L vs 8+ A+C+ L
7. In skill checks were a challenge between whatever the three modifiers you had.
8. So for attack rolls the attacker had a very good chance of hitting the DC and as they leveled their ability to hit the DC increased slightly.
9. For saving throws the attack I had a very reliable chance of success in 2014 and a social chance of success in 2024 which increase greatly with level because more likely than not only the attacker can put their level bonuses on the check.
10. The main difference is between attacks and spells word that spells more limited in use but their effects were a lot more impactful and offered something in return for failure.

Because spellcasters were often the only ones that are guaranteed to add their level bonus and often were the only ones who had a good ability bonus to the d20 test, it's severely warped the game.

Perhaps the key is to either:

1) Remove the level bonus from spell DC. Straight up 10 + Ability Modifier. Or just Ability Score.

2) Lower the impact of ability modifier. Cap it at +2 and require feats or magic items M to raise spell DC.

Thoughts?

*There's also a race/species bonus but it really doesn't matter and fold into the others because race and species bonuses to the d20 doesn't scale and usually are minor.

 

[pemerton]

I did say 4E phb.

<snip>

Main point is a level 29 power is closer in effect to a 5th level spell in 5E.

The post that I replied to just said "Have a look at the lvl 29 powers in 4E. Compare to synaptic static in 5E.".

And Synaptic Static is itself from a supplement rather than the PhB.

But in any event, here's a 29th level spell from the 4e PHB:

Hurl through Hell

Daily * Arcane, Fear, Fire, Implement, Teleportation

Standard Action, Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Constitution vs. Will

Hit: 7d10 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and the target disappears into the Nine Hells until the end of your next turn. The target returns to the same square it left, or the nearest unoccupied square, and is prone and stunned.

Sustain Minor: If you spend a minor action to sustain the power, the target’s return is delayed until the end of your next turn. You can sustain the power no more than three times.

Miss: Half damage, and the target does not disappear.​

(It was later errata-ed, to "Hit: 4d10 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and the target disappears into the Nine Hells until the end of your next turn. The target returns to the same space it left, or the nearest unoccupied space, and is prone and stunned (save ends).)

As an attack spell, that's pretty different from Synaptic Static. (Even the errata-ed version.)

Here's the 25th level Maze spell:

Daily * Arcane, Enchantment, Implement, Psychic

Standard Action, Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: 3d12 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage.

Effect: The target is removed from play. At the end of each of its turns, the target makes an Intelligence check against your Will. On a success, the target returns to play in the space it last occupied or in the nearest unoccupied space of its choice, if that space is occupied. On each failure, the target gains a cumulative +5 bonus to the check.​

(I've used the errata-ed version, because it's clearer in its rules terminology. In its play, it's the same as the original version.)

Its main difference from the 8th level 5e spell is the cumulative bonus to the check. But that is just one example of why 4e tends not to have the problem being discussed in this thread. (A 25th level wizard probably has a Will of around 40. A Pit Fiend, Monster Vault version, is level 26 with a +19 Int bonus. With the bonus it will get out, but doesn't have an even chance until its 3rd try.)

So anyway, I think these examples refute your claim about comparative power levels. And that's before I get to fighter abilities like, say, the 27th level Cruel Reaper, an encounter power (from the PHB) that lets the fighter make two close burst attacks, with a 10' shift in between them. That's stronger than a 20th level 5e fighter's 4 attacks.

They inflated the power level in 4E splats.

Again, that's not my experience.

Go look at a 20th level 4E power them. Technically youre level 20 sure. But you're not really its all perception.

4E phb lvl 19
Acid Wave
5d6+10 ongoing

Cloudkill
1d10+intelligence recurring

Disintegrate
5d10+intelligence mod plus ongoing damage.

Evards
2d10 intelligence mod plus immobilized

This is barely 3rd level spells in 5E. At level 19. I rest my case. Youre basically level 6 with level 19 hit points.

Here is Acid Wave:

Daily * Acid, Arcane, Implement

Standard Action, Close blast 5

Target: Each creature in blast

Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex

Hit: 5d6 + Intelligence modifier acid damage, and ongoing 10 acid damage (save ends).

Miss: Half damage, and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends).​

The expected damage, at 19th level, is 17.5 (dice) + 6 or so (INT) + 10 (ongoing) = 33.5, or about 10d6. And it is a close attack, so it doesn't generate opportunity attacks. I don't think it's the best option for a 19th level wizard, but it's stronger than a 5e D&D 3rd level AoE.

Here is Cloudkill:

Daily * Arcane, Implement, Poison, Zone

Standard Action, Area burst 5 within 20 squares

Target: Each creature in burst

Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage.

Effect: The burst creates a zone of poisonous vapors that lasts until the end of your next turn. A creature that enters the zone or starts its turn there takes 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage. As a move action, you can move the zone 3 squares.

Sustain Minor: The zone persists.​

Whether it hits or misses doesn't really matter - it is the auto damage that is meaningful, about 12 hp on each target in a square 55 feet on a side. This kills all minions in the area. And over (say) 3 rounds is a significant amount of damage on any target caught in the vapours - which can be moved. The main weakness is that it is poison damage.

I don't know what 3rd level spell in 5e you are comparing this to. Compared to 5e Cloudkill it has a bigger area, and does similar damage to what that spell does on a save (half of 5d8 = 11.25), and its movement can be controlled. And the existence of minions in 4e D&D increases the utility of auto-damage.

Here is Evard's Black Tentacles (the errata-ed version, which reduces the AoE from burst 4 to burst 3, but clarifies the way the effect works):

Daily * Arcane, Implement, Necrotic, Nethermancy, Zone

Standard Action Area burst 3 within 10 squares

Target: Each creature in the burst

Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex

Hit: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).

Effect: The burst creates a zone of difficult terrain that lasts until the end of your next turn. Whenever a creature enters the zone, you can use an opportunity action to make the attack against that creature.

Sustain Minor: The zone persists until the end of your next turn, and each creature within the zone takes 10 necrotic damage.​

The damage - an average of 17 or so - is modest, and necrotic is not a very good damage type. But immobilisation in that area is strong, and the creation of a zone of opportunity attacks that immobilise is really quite strong.

5e D&D has various area denial/restraint spells: Spike Growth, Evard's Black Tentacles, and even Slow can be considered through this lens. I'm not sure about their level rankings - Spike Growth is 2nd and Evard's 4th, but the former has a better range and AoE, and seems like it might be more useful in many circumstances. I think this is an area where 4e D&D just has a clearer sense of balance in the way it allocates effects to power levels.

We quit at level 7 due to boredom.

Have you played high level 4e D&D? I have. The idea that a 19th level 4e character and an AD&D character of (say) 7th level are on a par - in the sense that they occupy the same sort of place in the fiction, and engage in the same sorts of adventures - is completely at odds with my experience.

 

[tetrasodium]

On the tangent of 5es hp inflation trying to make up for monsters they are not adequately stated for appropriate defense, I think we've seen better solutions in the past. As clunky and lolbroke as the system itself can be, I think that the HP/MDC divide I. Rifts is a far more elegant solution than the mudflation style bags of hp clad in tissue paper.

In a nutshell 100HP=1MDC but questions like "does this x HP attack Damage that MDC creature/object at sll" are almost entirely left to the gm because the answer is "generally of course not". Both sides of the gm screen are still using reasonable numbers and trivial dice counts, just at some point∆ they go from marking and saying "HP" to "MDC". Running into an mdc creature without MDC weapons pretty much amounts to an immediate,"omg we need to run" they should be present when there is a tier (or more) separating PC's from an opponent, I'm tired of pretending zergwaves of low cr monsters vrs high level parties is fun or nuanced enough to justify designing the whole system around it

∆of course rifts kinda went wrong by making that point somewhere early in character creation

 

[Zardnaar]

The post that I replied to just said "Have a look at the lvl 29 powers in 4E. Compare to synaptic static in 5E.".

And Synaptic Static is itself from a supplement rather than the PhB.

But in any event, here's a 29th level spell from the 4e PHB:

Hurl through Hell

Daily * Arcane, Fear, Fire, Implement, Teleportation

Standard Action, Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Constitution vs. Will

Hit: 7d10 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and the target disappears into the Nine Hells until the end of your next turn. The target returns to the same square it left, or the nearest unoccupied square, and is prone and stunned.

Sustain Minor: If you spend a minor action to sustain the power, the target’s return is delayed until the end of your next turn. You can sustain the power no more than three times.

Miss: Half damage, and the target does not disappear.​

(It was later errata-ed, to "Hit: 4d10 + Constitution modifier fire damage, and the target disappears into the Nine Hells until the end of your next turn. The target returns to the same space it left, or the nearest unoccupied space, and is prone and stunned (save ends).)

As an attack spell, that's pretty different from Synaptic Static. (Even the errata-ed version.)

Here's the 25th level Maze spell:

Daily * Arcane, Enchantment, Implement, Psychic

Standard Action, Ranged 10

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: 3d12 + Intelligence modifier psychic damage.

Effect: The target is removed from play. At the end of each of its turns, the target makes an Intelligence check against your Will. On a success, the target returns to play in the space it last occupied or in the nearest unoccupied space of its choice, if that space is occupied. On each failure, the target gains a cumulative +5 bonus to the check.​

(I've used the errata-ed version, because it's clearer in its rules terminology. In its play, it's the same as the original version.)

Its main difference from the 8th level 5e spell is the cumulative bonus to the check. But that is just one example of why 4e tends not to have the problem being discussed in this thread. (A 25th level wizard probably has a Will of around 40. A Pit Fiend, Monster Vault version, is level 26 with a +19 Int bonus. With the bonus it will get out, but doesn't have an even chance until its 3rd try.)

So anyway, I think these examples refute your claim about comparative power levels. And that's before I get to fighter abilities like, say, the 27th level Cruel Reaper, an encounter power (from the PHB) that lets the fighter make two close burst attacks, with a 10' shift in between them. That's stronger than a 20th level 5e fighter's 4 attacks.

Again, that's not my experience.

Here is Acid Wave:

Daily * Acid, Arcane, Implement

Standard Action, Close blast 5

Target: Each creature in blast

Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex

Hit: 5d6 + Intelligence modifier acid damage, and ongoing 10 acid damage (save ends).

Miss: Half damage, and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends).​

The expected damage, at 19th level, is 17.5 (dice) + 6 or so (INT) + 10 (ongoing) = 33.5, or about 10d6. And it is a close attack, so it doesn't generate opportunity attacks. I don't think it's the best option for a 19th level wizard, but it's stronger than a 5e D&D 3rd level AoE.

Here is Cloudkill:

Daily * Arcane, Implement, Poison, Zone

Standard Action, Area burst 5 within 20 squares

Target: Each creature in burst

Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage.

Effect: The burst creates a zone of poisonous vapors that lasts until the end of your next turn. A creature that enters the zone or starts its turn there takes 1d10 + Intelligence modifier poison damage. As a move action, you can move the zone 3 squares.

Sustain Minor: The zone persists.​

Whether it hits or misses doesn't really matter - it is the auto damage that is meaningful, about 12 hp on each target in a square 55 feet on a side. This kills all minions in the area. And over (say) 3 rounds is a significant amount of damage on any target caught in the vapours - which can be moved. The main weakness is that it is poison damage.

I don't know what 3rd level spell in 5e you are comparing this to. Compared to 5e Cloudkill it has a bigger area, and does similar damage to what that spell does on a save (half of 5d8 = 11.25), and its movement can be controlled. And the existence of minions in 4e D&D increases the utility of auto-damage.

Here is Evard's Black Tentacles (the errata-ed version, which reduces the AoE from burst 4 to burst 3, but clarifies the way the effect works):

Daily * Arcane, Implement, Necrotic, Nethermancy, Zone

Standard Action Area burst 3 within 10 squares

Target: Each creature in the burst

Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex

Hit: 2d10 + Intelligence modifier necrotic damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).

Effect: The burst creates a zone of difficult terrain that lasts until the end of your next turn. Whenever a creature enters the zone, you can use an opportunity action to make the attack against that creature.

Sustain Minor: The zone persists until the end of your next turn, and each creature within the zone takes 10 necrotic damage.​

The damage - an average of 17 or so - is modest, and necrotic is not a very good damage type. But immobilisation in that area is strong, and the creation of a zone of opportunity attacks that immobilise is really quite strong.

5e D&D has various area denial/restraint spells: Spike Growth, Evard's Black Tentacles, and even Slow can be considered through this lens. I'm not sure about their level rankings - Spike Growth is 2nd and Evard's 4th, but the former has a better range and AoE, and seems like it might be more useful in many circumstances. I think this is an area where 4e D&D just has a clearer sense of balance in the way it allocates effects to power levels.

Have you played high level 4e D&D? I have. The idea that a 19th level 4e character and an AD&D character of (say) 7th level are on a par - in the sense that they occupy the same sort of place in the fiction, and engage in the same sorts of adventures - is completely at odds with my experience.

That wasnt what I was claiming. I said 4E isnt really high level D&D as the power level is so low. The way tgey achieved it threw the baby out with the bath water.

Level 21 your at wills scale and I posted 4Es pathetic level 19 powers which were roughly 3rd level.

Play for 2 years or so to get them....

Throw in 70 pages of errata and rewriting the MM I wouldn't be claiming 4E better at high level. It was just borked in a different way and worse boring. Every single one of those powers is a small amount of damage and a rider effect.

Drag out level 3-10 maybe 11 to level 30, scale monsters to match, add treadmill. That's basically 4E right there in its phb. Red Toyota red Ferrari paint a 19 on it. Totally the same thing.

Bored the entire playerbase to death and essentially died in 2 years with essentials trying to save it.

 

[pemerton]

That wasnt what I was claiming. I said 4E isnt really high level D&D as the power level is so low.

I don't know what you mean by "the power level is so low"? How are you measuring power level?

The 30th level Invoker/Wizard in my game can turn back time to return from the dead if killed; can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter; can manipulate magical effects with more skill and capability than the god Vecna. With bonuses for knowledge skills of between +35 and +45, he know virtually everything there is to know about everything. He has wrested secrets from the mind of Vecna.

The 30h level Fighter/Cleric in the same game can perform close burst attacks multiple times per combat (with 3 close burst encounter powers). He can second wind to recover about half his hit points twice per encounter. His opportunity hits immobilise opponents. When the PCs fought a giant king riding on a dragon, this character was able to jump onto the dragon, pin its wings with his immobilising attack, and then survive the fall as it crashed to the ground. When the PCs fought the tarrasque, over the course of two rounds this character reduced its hp by around about 600.

Your statements about what high level 4e play is like are simply not borne out by my experience.

Here are just a couple of posts with more detai:

P

Thread 'Session report reposted - PCs stave of the Dusk War by negotiating with Yan-C-Bin and defeating the tarrasque'

Sep 29, 2016

This is mostly a repost following the crash. I've also added in a couple of bits from the lost Tarrasque thread.

***********************************************

The current focus of my 4e game - which is now at 30th level, the top end of Epic tier - is the fate of the multiverse: will it be engulfed in an imminent Dusk War, or is there some way of averting such a thing?

Our session on May 29 began with a transition scene (to borrow the MHRP terminology). The PCs erected a magic circle around the Mausoleum of the Raven Queen, in order to prevent anyone from entering it and potentially...

• pemerton
• Replies: 1
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

P

Thread 'Session Report - Against the (Frost) Giants'

Aug 10, 2014

The PCs in my 4e game have gone to the Feywild looking for the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, so they can destroy the Frost Giants who are massing, in alliance with Lolth and the Prince of Frost, to start a War of Seasons that will overthrow the Summer Fey and steal control over winter away from the Raven Queen.

In a previous session, they travelled to the Feywild and got directions to the giants.

Since then, a lot of d20s have been rolled.

I'm using photocopies of my old G2 maps, blown up onto A3 paper, with notes on cavern occupants and stats written up where necessary...

• pemerton
• Replies: 19
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

Level 21 your at wills scale and I posted 4Es pathetic level 19 powers which were roughly 3rd level.

As per my post above, the 19th level powers are not "roughly 3rd level".

And at-wills grow in power in all sorts of way - by stat bonus, by item, by 21st level increase in dice. At 1st level, Thunderwave will do 1d6+4 (or thereabouts) - an average of 7.5 hp damage - and push 2 or 3 squares (INT 18, WIS 14 or 16).

At 20th level, both stats will have increased by 5, and the character will have a +4 implement (or inherent bonus), so damage will be 1d6+10 (or thereabouts) - an average of 13.5 hp damage - and push 4 or 5 squares.

At 30th level, both stats will have typically increase by another 5, and the character will have a +6 implement, so damage will be 2d6+15 (or thereabouts) - an average of 22 hp damage - and push 7 or 8 squares.

Character builds that are aimed more at damage that at control will of course have many other ways - magic items, utility powers, class abilities, feats - that boost their damage. The at-will damage for the Sorcerer in my game (Blazing Starfall, an AoE) was 1d4 + 1d10 +30 (average 38) at 20th level, and 2d4+ 1d10 + 52 (average 62.5) at 30th level. The doubled dice are not a very significant component of that.

You can read the actual play posts linked above to see how much damage even a controlling-oriented fighter build can do in one round, with a combination of at wills, OAs and encounter powers.

and worse boring. Every single one of those powers is a small amount of damage and a rider effect.

Every combat ability in D&D ever is a damage amount, plus an effect. Those are the basic elements from which combat in the game is built. That's all that 5e D&D abilities offer.

But if you are claiming that (say) Charm of the Dark Dream plays the same as (say) a paragon or epic tier wizard's Thunderwave plays the same as (say) Twist of Space plays the same as (say) Cruel Reaper, than in my experience you're just wrong.

4e is very technically demanding on players and GMs, especially above Paragon tier. But I didn't find it boring. And I wasn't the only one. When I played in Manbearat's PbP on these boards, I don't think the other players were bored either: The chamberlain, the king, and the dragon (drobe)

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't know what you mean by "the power level is so low"? How are you measuring power level?

The 30th level Invoker/Wizard in my game can turn back time to return from the dead if killed; can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter; can manipulate magical effects with more skill and capability than the god Vecna. With bonuses for knowledge skills of between +35 and +45, he know virtually everything there is to know about everything. He has wrested secrets from the mind of Vecna.

The 30h level Fighter/Cleric in the same game can perform close burst attacks multiple times per combat (with 3 close burst encounter powers). He can second wind to recover about half his hit points twice per encounter. His opportunity hits immobilise opponents. When the PCs fought a giant king riding on a dragon, this character was able to jump onto the dragon, pin its wings with his immobilising attack, and then survive the fall as it crashed to the ground. When the PCs fought the tarrasque, over the course of two rounds this character reduced its hp by around about 600.

Your statements about what high level 4e play is like are simply not borne out by my experience.

Here are just a couple of posts with more detai:

P

Thread 'Session report reposted - PCs stave of the Dusk War by negotiating with Yan-C-Bin and defeating the tarrasque'

Sep 29, 2016

This is mostly a repost following the crash. I've also added in a couple of bits from the lost Tarrasque thread.

***********************************************

The current focus of my 4e game - which is now at 30th level, the top end of Epic tier - is the fate of the multiverse: will it be engulfed in an imminent Dusk War, or is there some way of averting such a thing?

Our session on May 29 began with a transition scene (to borrow the MHRP terminology). The PCs erected a magic circle around the Mausoleum of the Raven Queen, in order to prevent anyone from entering it and potentially...

• pemerton
• Replies: 1
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

P

Thread 'Session Report - Against the (Frost) Giants'

Aug 10, 2014

The PCs in my 4e game have gone to the Feywild looking for the Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, so they can destroy the Frost Giants who are massing, in alliance with Lolth and the Prince of Frost, to start a War of Seasons that will overthrow the Summer Fey and steal control over winter away from the Raven Queen.

In a previous session, they travelled to the Feywild and got directions to the giants.

Since then, a lot of d20s have been rolled.

I'm using photocopies of my old G2 maps, blown up onto A3 paper, with notes on cavern occupants and stats written up where necessary...

• pemerton
• Replies: 19
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

• 

As per my post above, the 19th level powers are not "roughly 3rd level".

And at-wills grow in power in all sorts of way - by stat bonus, by item, by 21st level increase in dice. At 1st level, Thunderwave will do 1d6+4 (or thereabouts) - an average of 7.5 hp damage - and push 2 or 3 squares (INT 18, WIS 14 or 16).

At 20th level, both stats will have increased by 5, and the character will have a +4 implement (or inherent bonus), so damage will be 1d6+10 (or thereabouts) - an average of 13.5 hp damage - and push 4 or 5 squares.

At 30th level, both stats will have typically increase by another 5, and the character will have a +6 implement, so damage will be 2d6+15 (or thereabouts) - an average of 22 hp damage - and push 7 or 8 squares.

Character builds that are aimed more at damage that at control will of course have many other ways - magic items, utility powers, class abilities, feats - that boost their damage. The at-will damage for the Sorcerer in my game (Blazing Starfall, an AoE) was 1d4 + 1d10 +30 (average 38) at 20th level, and 2d4+ 1d10 + 52 (average 62.5) at 30th level. The doubled dice are not a very significant component of that.

You can read the actual play posts linked above to see how much damage even a controlling-oriented fighter build can do in one round, with a combination of at wills, OAs and encounter powers.

Every combat ability in D&D ever is a damage amount, plus an effect. Those are the basic elements from which combat in the game is built. That's all that 5e D&D abilities offer.

But if you are claiming that (say) Charm of the Dark Dream plays the same as (say) a paragon or epic tier wizard's Thunderwave plays the same as (say) Twist of Space plays the same as (say) Cruel Reaper, than in my experience you're just wrong.

4e is very technically demanding on players and GMs, especially above Paragon tier. But I didn't find it boring. And I wasn't the only one. When I played in Manbearat's PbP on these boards, I don't think the other players were bored either: The chamberlain, the king, and the dragon (drobe)

1d6+10 by level 20 kind of proves my point. Red toyota, red ferrari.

You're basically level 5ish in effect, hit points of a 20th level character with an epic boon and magic items. Its not exactly what people would expect from a high level game. One can directly compare the powers in 4E PHB to spells from 5E. The power levels are very different. I'm not claiming 5E is perfect either it kind of falls apart around level 13. Yes technically you can go high level but the power level is very restrained effectively tier 2 with a few bells and whistles. Vs monsters with buckets of HP. Compare your 20th level stuff to 9th level spells. Not remotely the same is it? Compare to 1E if you like and its christmas tree of magic items. You're doing something similar around level 10.

A heroic tier fight in 4E lasts similar amount of time to a level 13 5E fight (unless you pick a handful of higher CR critters). You're looking at 45-60 minutes for anything vaguely complicated in 5E. Hit point grind.

If one made a 5.75 edition a quick ix wold be drastically buffed monsters and nerfing various level 7+ spells. Some just need to go bye bye. Meteor Swarms fine, foresights fine things like Shapechange, true polymorph, simulacrum etc need to go or be tweaked.

6E you could rewrite the game from the ground up (I would mostly use 5E engine ask hard questions about lvl 1-10, simple vs complex, saving throw scaling etc). The ingredients for a ultimate D&D are in 5.0 and 5.5 IMHO just pick a direction in 6E.You could make 4E, 3.5, Shadowdark/OSR inspired 6E using what we have.

Obvious fix would be stripping out high level stuff directly (10 levels) or indirectly (4E). Would the fanbase accept that? No idea. Harder would be drastic overhaul of high level abilities and buffing monsters.

 

[Eric V]

I don't know what you mean by "the power level is so low"? How are you measuring power level?

The 30th level Invoker/Wizard in my game can turn back time to return from the dead if killed; can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter; can manipulate magical effects with more skill and capability than the god Vecna. With bonuses for knowledge skills of between +35 and +45, he know virtually everything there is to know about everything. He has wrested secrets from the mind of Vecna.

The 30h level Fighter/Cleric in the same game can perform close burst attacks multiple times per combat (with 3 close burst encounter powers). He can second wind to recover about half his hit points twice per encounter. His opportunity hits immobilise opponents. When the PCs fought a giant king riding on a dragon, this character was able to jump onto the dragon, pin its wings with his immobilising attack, and then survive the fall as it crashed to the ground. When the PCs fought the tarrasque, over the course of two rounds this character reduced its hp by around about 600.

Your statements about what high level 4e play is like are simply not borne out by my experience.

They can't be, can they? Didn't he claim they never made it to that level? Of the two people discussing high level 4e, only one actually has experience with the game at that level...

 

[Lanefan]

Have you played high level 4e D&D? I have. The idea that a 19th level 4e character and an AD&D character of (say) 7th level are on a par - in the sense that they occupy the same sort of place in the fiction, and engage in the same sorts of adventures - is completely at odds with my experience.

How would you compare them, then? What 1e level is a 4e 19th comparable to, and what 4e level is a 1e 7th comparable to?