D&D General Improving Ritual Caster and Pact of The Tome?

[doctorbadwolf]

Any ideas? I do like getting a bunch of cantrips and some ritual spells so Tome isnt that bad, just doesnt feel very TOME to me.

The feat...i guess is fine but damn.


Maybe a list of spells that you can learn as rituals when you take the feat that arent normally rituals?

Maybe the pact does the same but also learn rituals that ypu can only use as rituals like the original?

 

[mellored]

Ritual caster should be higher than level 1.
Like, spell level equal to your proficiency bonus.

Tome seems plenty good to me, assuming you read it as being able to choose after a short rest. Need to fix something? Short rest and grab Mending. Going up against invisible creatures? Grab stary Wisp. Thirsty in a desert? Elementalis for Becon Water. In addition to Guidance of course.

 

[Zardnaar]

Pact of tome is fine. The problem is its second "upgraded" version is lacking vs chain and blade.

Probably let the upgrade version add rituals like the 2014 warlock or let it function like a wizards spellbook.

Warlock used to be best ritual caster. Kind of stepped on the wizards toes though.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ritual caster should be higher than level 1.
Like, spell level equal to your proficiency bonus.

Tome seems plenty good to me, assuming you read it as being able to choose after a short rest. Need to fix something? Short rest and grab Mending. Going up against invisible creatures? Grab stary Wisp. Thirsty in a desert? Elementalis for Becon Water. In addition to Guidance of course.

I dont bother with guidance, but yeah that is a good point. like i said, it is mechanically good, it just doesnt feel like a set of benefits that come from havinf a special magic book, to me.

For the feat...i ight switch back to the original version. It works fine with the new rules, and it makes a thief rogue with that and expertise Arcana very distinct from proper spellcasters.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think the original sin of 5e ritual spellcasting, and feats and abilities that grant it, is that there just aren't that many ritual spells available, and many that are available don't play very well as rituals or were allowed to have the ritual tag simply because they are not very useful or powerful spells. So more good ritual spells is the first step.

The Ritual Caster feat should give you some free level 1 spells, but then just let you copy any ritual spell on any level into your book whether it is of a level normally available to someone of your level or not. 5e is way too concerned about gating high level magic behind character levels, but none of the ritual spells will break the game if someone gets them a few levels early.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think the original sin of 5e ritual spellcasting, and feats and abilities that grant it, is that there just aren't that many ritual spells available, and many that are available don't play very well as rituals or were allowed to have the ritual tag simply because they are not very useful or powerful spells. So more good ritual spells is the first step.

The Ritual Caster feat should give you some free level 1 spells, but then just let you copy any ritual spell on any level into your book whether it is of a level normally available to someone of your level or not. 5e is way too concerned about gating high level magic behind character levels, but none of the ritual spells will break the game if someone gets them a few levels early.

I think thematically it makes sense to have them level gated. Otherwise agreed.

 

[Horwath]

maybe another invocation:
Improved pact of the tome. requires warlock level 5+
pick a number of spells equal to your charisma modifier from any class,
spell must of of level of your pact slots or lower(max 5th), you can cast those spells with your pact slots.

 

[Mephista]

Pact Of the Tome is kinda based on Ritual Tome of 4e. The idea was anyone could learn ritual magic tied to key skills - usually Arcana, Religion, or Nature - that encompassed out of combat abilities. So, a warlock or a sorcerer was just as good at arcane rituals as a wizard. Virtually all of the AEDU were combat oriented; even the utility were primarily non-direct damage or direct healing combat options.

Anyways, we move to 5e. Wizard, rather than being defined by implements like in 4e, jumped back to being the Spellbook Class. It kinda swallowed rituals as one of its main gigs as a result. Right now, the old Tome effectively lets you become a bit more "Wizard-like." Which is different enough from Blade pact - you do become more Fighter-like, but only in that you become part-martial. Tome is very specifically more Wizard-like instead of more full-caster-like.

Maybe its time to drop the rituals entirely, let them be Wizard's schtick, and focus more on just the cantrips? Warlock is supposed to be the cantrip caster. Why not just offer more cantrips, but let them do more and be more interesting? Let Agonizing/Repelling/etc apply to all cantrips. Let Minor Illusion, Message and Prestigitation, which have limits on the number of instances of simultaneous casts active at once, have more active.

This would definitely feel more warlock-y, push the feeling of being even more of a caster than base warlock.

Alternatively, you can go more of a book-of-contracts vibe. Where you get benefits from people who sign their name in the book. For a price. Or something. There was a pair of old Invocations that were more flexible and interesting than the new 2024 ones, I thought. Remote communication and bringing back from the dead.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Pact Of the Tome is kinda based on Ritual Tome of 4e. The idea was anyone could learn ritual magic tied to key skills - usually Arcana, Religion, or Nature - that encompassed out of combat abilities. So, a warlock or a sorcerer was just as good at arcane rituals as a wizard. Virtually all of the AEDU were combat oriented; even the utility were primarily non-direct damage or direct healing combat options.

Anyways, we move to 5e. Wizard, rather than being defined by implements like in 4e, jumped back to being the Spellbook Class. It kinda swallowed rituals as one of its main gigs as a result. Right now, the old Tome effectively lets you become a bit more "Wizard-like." Which is different enough from Blade pact - you do become more Fighter-like, but only in that you become part-martial. Tome is very specifically more Wizard-like instead of more full-caster-like.

Maybe its time to drop the rituals entirely, let them be Wizard's schtick, and focus more on just the cantrips? Warlock is supposed to be the cantrip caster. Why not just offer more cantrips, but let them do more and be more interesting? Let Agonizing/Repelling/etc apply to all cantrips. Let Minor Illusion, Message and Prestigitation, which have limits on the number of instances of simultaneous casts active at once, have more active.

This would definitely feel more warlock-y, push the feeling of being even more of a caster than base warlock.

Alternatively, you can go more of a book-of-contracts vibe. Where you get benefits from people who sign their name in the book. For a price. Or something.

The appeal of the tome pact is to make the warlock into more of a ritual occultist, not to make it more of a wizard. the cantrips are there to make it as powerful as the other two.

If we did want it to be more wizard like, we could have the pact giv the ability to learn spells like a wizard, and allow changing cantrips during a long rest.

 

[Mephista]

Nitpick - you can change the cantrips (and rituals) from the Book out during a long rest. And short rest, for that matter. You can re-summon the book with completely new cantrips and completely new Rituals after every short rest and every long rest. Technically, this means that warlocks have access to every cantrip in the game and every ritual of 1st level immediately. So.... yeah. You might have been flippant with that remark about being more wizard-like, but turns out that yeah, that's exactly what happened.

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But whatever. If you don't like the suggestion, you don't. I'm done - just wanted to suggest some thoughts and I'm not looking to argue. Good luck.