Stonetop, or, Nice Village You've Got There

[zakael19]

Next will probably be working as editor for Jason Lutes's Freebooters on the Frontier 2E.

I just noticed that Jason wrote the "The Game Ongoing" chapter for Stonetop that's in draft.

Tangental, but currently porting the entire Dolmenwood bestiary over to FotF on top of the playbooks I wrote (and that means I probably have to stat up the villages and stuff too oh no).

 

[Aldarc]

I just noticed that Jason wrote the "The Game Ongoing" chapter for Stonetop that's in draft.

Tangental, but currently porting the entire Dolmenwood bestiary over to FotF on top of the playbooks I wrote (and that means I probably have to stat up the villages and stuff too oh no).

There was an update talking about it. Jeremy gave Jason what notes he had. Jason said it was difficult trying to write in someone else's style. But Jeremy will give Jason's writing a pass to put it in his voice.

 

[zakael19]

Yeah, reading that update was what I was referring to "just noticing."

Anyway, looking forward to the final Sites chapter to use alongside the FotF's dungeon procedures as the bedrock for developing interesting narrative-focused dungeons for my various games!

 

[RenleyRenfield]

I talked a lot with Jason as he set aside Freebooters (and I made a few playbooks for him), and moved on to Stonetop. I think it was the right choice but I think it's really wrong to call it ANYTHING like D&D. It's just not. Not 4e, not whatever.

Stonetop is a worldbuilding game zoomed into to your village. There can be adventures, "Expeditions", but its not even remotely for the reasons or pointless trite plots D&D any version has. You are often protection people, preparing for seasons, and in general, building the story of your people.

The Homefront is where the game happily sits, and that is where I think people can be given a reason to set aside D&D and go play Stonetop before it's 100%. (its close enough now, you can play just fine. The refinement only hits the most pedantic of game moments)

Yes, it suffers from poor PBTA design. Moves like Defend and Interfere don't snowball and offer no value to the theme of the game. Moves like Defy Danger do nothing that MC moves don't already do, so is largely a themeless and bland roll. Moves like Seek Insight and Know things are again, split moves that really don't offer strong themes or reasons to use one over the other since either could offer the same info.

6/10, people should play it, but it's moves have no soul, its use of the benefit of PBTA moves creating bespoke style is just not there (in the way that Monster Hearts and Apocalypse Keys show a masterclass in how that is done) and feel like there were the 1st gen PBTA moves we got 10 years ago.

If you need a cozy city building game, its ok.

Otherwise I think most folks would find Legends in the Mist to be what they were expecting...

 

[zakael19]

Not 4e, not whatever.

I was talking about inspirations in the world design.

Yes, it suffers from poor PBTA design. Moves like Defend and Interfere don't snowball and offer no value to the theme of the game. Moves like Defy Danger do nothing that MC moves don't already do, so is largely a themeless and bland roll. Moves like Seek Insight and Know things are again, split moves that really don't offer strong themes or reasons to use one over the other since either could offer the same info.

I despise this sort of PBTA-elitist BS, that are fixed in a very specific personal ideal of PBTA play and refuse to accept the wide world that it comprises, and how different games have different designs to serve their specific design goals and premise. I would really appreciate it if people with this perspective would not ascribe some sort of universal truth about PBTAs, and instead accept that they have a specific vibe of game they enjoy and really glom on to the small set of games which promote it. If the original designer of the core philosophy and systems rejects stuff like that I'd kinda hope that people would pay attention. Alas.

but it's moves have no soul,

The basic moves are basic, but the playbook moves have given rise to such incredible fiction at my tables.

 

[zakael19]

If you need a cozy city building game, its ok.

Also this is just insulting, and literally the opposite of what I've seen and heard about in play.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

The basic moves are basic, but the playbook moves have given rise to such incredible fiction at my tables.

Since you took everything I said amazingly wrong... I will respond to the one salient conversation point you made.

To be clear =
It's not "PBTA is only supposed to be way X".
It's "This implementation of PBTA struggles and here are some reasons why".

There are things that make any given system easier and harder to play. And the Basic moves in Stonetop need work, they just do. They don't help produce results that feel like they are bringing "Stonetop" to life. They just resolve situations in very very generic terms. This is a starting point of discussion for what can make the game not meet expectations.

I can say the same for many Moves in the playbooks too. For example: The Heavy, a move is =
IMPROVED STAT
Each time you take this move, increase one of your stats by 1 (to a max of +2).
or
GUARDIAN
When you Defend, hold 1 extra Readiness. Even on a 6-, hold 1 Readiness

= these are good examples of moves that could literally be in any RPG, and speak nothing to "Stonetop". And they don't ...do anything... so. I would like to see more style here.

Some more verbose moves still don't evoke anything but the most generic of responses/prompts =
BRINGER OF RUIN
(Requires level 6+)
When you roll a 12+ to Clash and your foe survives, name something they possess (like their sword,
their position, a limb, their dignity, etc.), but nothing that would kill them outright. Whatever you
name, it is broken, shattered, lost. Tell us how.

Again, none of this is bad... but ... nothing much says "Oh this is a neat take on X"... it's a lot of grey/bland...
________________

Have a conversation about a game in development and its strengths and weaknesses. And maybe do it without attacking others or knee jerk reactions that are blithely unrelated.

 

[mamba]

Tangental, but currently porting the entire Dolmenwood bestiary over to FotF on top of the playbooks I wrote

are you making that available? Would be interested

 

[zakael19]

are you making that available? Would be interested

When it’s done I’ll collate it a couple ways and host it somewhere yeah, probably linked on the FOTF discord channel.

(So many creatures, I’ve done 71 so far and there’s still 30ish monsters + all the “beasts” to go)

 

[overgeeked]

Sounds fun. Especially the points of light setting. Loved that about 4E. Along with so much more.

I do have a question. One of the very few complaints I have about a lot of PbtA games is the advancement rules basically dictate your character’s story. To me that’s literally the opposite of the play to find out ethos. Does Stonetop also use this style of pre-planned story for advancement?