AD&D 1E AD&D Retroclone Design Goals

[DammitVictor]

What is ICE and SNE in this context?

Group SNE is the Japanese publisher of Sword World and Record of Lodoss War. It's coincidental, but Japanese D&D adaptations/spinoffs are a lot closer to what I think of as "old school D&D" than either "new school" D&D or most of the OSR. I wish I'd known that twenty or thirty years ago.

Iron Crown Enterprises is the publisher of Rolemaster and High Adventure Roleplaying, which have been major influences on D&D's development since before 3e. (Starting with Player's Option: Combat & Tactics; Monte Cook worked for ICE before moving to TSR and staying with WotC.) I was late to the party for both games, but they've been a big influence on my own designs for the last twenty years.

I also owe pretty big debts to Palladium and TSR/WotC's own Alternity Science Fiction Roleplaying Game.

 

[jonesymat]

Oh, I am not planning to. Just thinking out loud about what I'd like to see-- my WIP owes more to Code SNE and ICE than TSR and I'm only vaguely hoping it'll be of interest to the broader OSR community.

There's a lot of overlap between what I'm trying to do with my house system and what I'd do in a retroclone, though.

Starting with 2e Player's Option as the base:

• Simplified ability scores; B/X math, no subabilities, limited scaling. (Think ICE, not WotC.)
• Merged and reconciled class list; all the core and "near core" classes would be  there but not necessarily separate.
• Classes and ancestries are customizable, but in a more restricted fashion. Class abilities are organized by class group, not by class.
  • Ancestry abilities scale with level and level-up CP can be used to buy them after 1st.
• Spellcasting would milk Chapter 6 of Spells & Magic, using those mechanics to have very different magic styles beyond spell lists.
• Definitely have a look at combining 2e's optional XP rewards (by class) with HARP's quest rewards.
• WP and NWP rules are in use, but not for basic proficiencies; they're for more special and specialized skills.
  • This includes OA martial arts and DF martial arts.
• Psionics is core.

Spoiler: Excessive and Largely Pointless Details

I haven't actually worked on this all that much as a project for publication; most of this material represents homebrew work I did for my table between 1995 and 2000. I've revisited it a few times since getting back into old D&D in 2010 or so.

When I was running AD&D in high school, I used Skills & Powers and Spells & Magic to customize the race/class rules for every campaign.

Ancestry & Class

• Core ancestries are PHB/S&P standard, plus goblin/hobgoblin/bugbear.
  • Hybrid ancestry is a human ancestral feature that can be selected/purchased.
• Classes are organized into groups like in 2e, including the Psionic group.
  • Warrior: Cavalier (+Samurai), Soldier (Bushi), Swordsage, Swashbuckler (think PHBR 1&2), Ranger.
  • Rogue: Thief, Bard, Assassin, Sapper
  • Mage: Wizard (diviner + sage), Sorcerer (Elementalist/Wu Jen), Magician (illusion/mentalism/dimension), Witch, Warlock.
  • Priest: Cleric, Templar (Crusader + Sohei), Shaman (+Shukenja), Druid, Healer.
  • Psion: Mystic (Monk + egoist), Psychic (telepath + seer), Havoker (soulknife + PK).
  • "Paladin" is something Warriors & Priests can  become; Assassins and Rangers are optional minor spellcasters.
• Race/class restrictions are  loosenedbut not removed entirely.
  • Humans can multiclass  better than other ancestries.
  • Some ancestries have requirements in addition to restrictions, like elves being warrior/mages before they can be /rogues or /priests.
• Subraces are less of a thing and ancestral features are less standardized. I like to think my minor flavor changes are pretty cool.

Martial Arts

I have never made this work, but the goal here is for the OA/PHBR15 martial arts system to coexist with "unarmed" weapon mastery and (even) more fantastic abilities from Dragon Fist and Flying Swordsmen. Players would buy these abilities with CP, based on their class and level.

Spellcasting

Just... read Chapter Six of Player's Option: Spells & Magic and think about some of the alternatives to Vancian casting that have been developed since 3e. It's trivial to adapt those rules for Wizard or Sorcerer casting, 5e prepared casting, or even further extremes like Sha'ir- or Warmage-style casting.

Psionics uses the "spellcasting" rules for spell lists and spells per day, but different mechanics than mage and priest spells. All psions are strictly limited to their known spells.

Every spellcaster (class and individual) has Major access to some schools/spheres and Minor access to others. (Which determines spell point cost, not maximum spell level.) Each class has its own rules for known/prepared spells and fixed/free magick. Different classes might use some of the special spellcasting rules.

Mages and Psions have tighter restrictions on their spells but can poach from other classes in their groups. Priests are a lot freer with their class spells, but a lot more restricted outside of their class lists. Minor spellcasters get the worst of both worlds.

I don't think the OSR and old school community would like this that much. Too much 2e and appears much more complicated than basic OSRIC. Even for people who like 2e the Players Options books are not popular. But who knows, maybe there is people who would like it

 

[Fenris-77]

Lots of people love the Player Option books (I certainly did at the time). Sensible people love them selectively. I think it's maybe a touch strong to say that they simply 'aren't popular' though. Strong opinions in that direction tend to come from folks whose primary talking point is 'balance' (for a very particular value of that word). I blame the internet.

 

[jonesymat]

Lots of people love the Player Option books (I certainly did at the time). Sensible people love them selectively. I think it's maybe a touch strong to say that they simply 'aren't popular' though. Strong opinions in that direction tend to come from folks whose primary talking point is 'balance' (for a very particular value of that word). I blame the internet.

Yes, maybe. I don't know if they are popular enough to have an interest for a retroclone. That is what I was trying to say. I think most people who like the Player's Options books just use them

 

[Fenris-77]

Yes, maybe. I don't know if they are popular enough to have an interest for a retroclone. That is what I was trying to say. I think most people who like the Player's Options books just use them

I think anything that was popular for the original game has potential in terms of retrocloning. Nostalgia is a strong sales pitch. In the specific case of the player's option books you need to really work on the balance thing, but I see no reason why it wouldn't sell (maybe a lot) if done right.