D&D 5E (2014) Is Point Buy Balanced?

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, that's my conclusion as well.

Yeah, the point really is that the random roll is less likely to get to a balanced result, not that there's some magical quality of the result itself that's different.

 

[Lanefan]

How likely are two people at a table to roll exactly the same six values with random die rolls? I'd suggest its very, very low. Whereas the only thing two people with point assignment need to do is to decide to have the same six values.

The question is not whether two people rolling get exactly the same six values.

The question is whether those six rolled values, in both cases, fall within the range that could also be reached via point buy, and why one is seen as balanced but not the other.

Put another way, if one player rolls 15-13-12-11-10-8* and another rolls 13-13-12-12-12-12* isn't that the same as if two players used point buy to get to the same sets of stats?

* - or whatever actual numbers point buy would allow, these are just examples.

 

[Lanefan]

Randomness effectively guarantees different results so your hypothetical doesn't really add anything to the discussion as far as I can see.

Point-buy virtually guarantees different results as well, unless every player just happens to buy to the same array in the end.

 

[AlViking]

Point-buy virtually guarantees different results as well, unless every player just happens to buy to the same array in the end.

The numbers are still going to give results that are reasonably close and balanced.

 

[ECMO3]

The numbers are still going to give results that are reasonably close and balanced.

Point Buy absolutely will not give results that are identical in play and usually won't give results that are even close in play.

You have to remove dice from the game completely if you want to even approach balance just from a math perspective, and even if you did that you will still have human factors associated with the players and the DM that would skew the game when comparing one PC to another PC.

When it comes to game balance the ability scores you generate at character creation are usually not very significant, regardless of the method you use.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The question is not whether two people rolling get exactly the same six values.

The question is whether those six rolled values, in both cases, fall within the range that could also be reached via point buy, and why one is seen as balanced but not the other.

Put another way, if one player rolls 15-13-12-11-10-8* and another rolls 13-13-12-12-12-12* isn't that the same as if two players used point buy to get to the same sets of stats?

If that happens, but that's a big if. Its rare for all the die rolls to land within the normal point buy scheme. In addition, some results from the die roll would be extremely unlikely to be chosen by someone using the point buy because they're too painful.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The numbers are still going to give results that are reasonably close and balanced.

the pure numerical stat value provided by standard array is 72, two numerical values for point buy are 69(15,15,15,8,8,8) and 75(13,13,13,12,12,12), (and there's probably not going to be that much more point variance beyond those two if i haven't picked the absolute ends of the scale), a range of 6, very manageable balance-wise, 4d6k3 meanwhile, can run the whole gamut of at the absolute lowest stat value 18(3,3,3,3,3,3) to the highest 108(18,18,18,18,18,18), 90 whole points of potential stat variance! even if the far ends of that scale is unlikely to actually be rolled most of the time.

 

[AlViking]

Point Buy absolutely will not give results that are identical in play and usually won't give results that are even close in play.

You have to remove dice from the game completely if you want to even approach balance just from a math perspective, and even if you did that you will still have human factors associated with the players and the DM that would skew the game when comparing one PC to another PC.

When it comes to game balance the ability scores you generate at character creation are usually not very significant, regardless of the method you use.

I never said they were equal - to do that you'd have to use the array. But that array will work better for some classes than others. I said they would be reasonably close and balanced. What people want out of their characters is going to vary, some people don't prioritize each 5% chance to hit in combat and would rather have an additional 10% to persuasion.

It will be more of a reasonable balance than 4d6dl almost every time. Your "not very significant" is just funny. Someone with an 18 or two and nothing lower than a 14 vs someone with a high of 14 (if that) and everything lower is going to have a big impact on potential effectiveness. I just rolled up 10 groups of 5 to get 9, 7, 11, 4, 13, 10 and 9, 13, 13, 15, 15, 18. I find it hard to believe that characters generated from both are going to be in the same ballpark.

If you use 4d6dl you will get significant imbalance on a regular basis. Personally I don't see the point, but it's not like I'm going to convince anyone.

 

[TwoSix]

I wasn't "missing" the context of stat sets across multiple characters; that had already been discussed (and modeled, and graphed.) I was trying to talk about a specific case involving identical results that were acquired by different methods. It was just a thought exercise: does knowing how a set of stats got generated affect your perception of how balanced they are?

Not so much for 15/14/13/12/10/8.

If the point buy method gives me 18/18/18/18/18/18, then I have some opinions on its balance.

 

[Lakesidefantasy]

How likely are two people at a table to roll exactly the same six values with random die rolls? I'd suggest its very, very low. Whereas the only thing two people with point assignment need to do is to decide to have the same six values.

FIGHT CLUB!!!

There 54,264 different combinations off ability scores. So I think the probability of two people rolling the same set of scores would be a 1/54264 chance multiplied (?) by another 1/54264. If my math is correct then the chance of two people rolling the same set of scores is 1/2944581696 chance. You would have a much better chance of winning the Powerball jackpot, which is 1/292400000. It's likely you would never roll the same set of scores in your lifetime.

For me this is a feature, not a bug. Because there are only 65 possible Point Buy options. And I suspect that we actually only use less than 10 in practice. I think D&D Beyond has this data, but I'm not so sure they'd want to share it.

This is a quantification of the cookie cutter criticism of Point Buy.