OSR Taking the OSE Initiate Feat

[Argyle King]

After some discussion on the General forum (where DCC was being compared to OSE,) I decided to pick up a few materials. I felt that increasing my knowledge of the product -by actually looking at it and trying to understand it- would allow me to have a more educated opinion, rather than relying on a mix of second-hand knowledge from YouTube and whatever sunk-cost emotions the primal part of my brain may feel toward products I already own. So, I picked up the Classic Game Set.

To be completely honest, I did not expect to like the product. The previous discussion over on the General forum mostly centered around the layout of a few adventures, and I did not particularly care for the layout. To my surprise, I found that the layout (used in the set's booklets) was something that I liked. There is still a lot to digest, but I feel confident that, even from just a brief perusal of the material, that I could play the game and mostly know what I was doing. (I would need a little bit of help getting accustomed to Thac0 and different save categories that modern D&D has.)

But I do have questions:

• How compatible is OSE with OSRIC? While I have not (yet) played OSRIC, I did back the upcoming newer version. From a lot of what I have read online, both games share the same roots, so are said to be mostly compatible with minor adjustments. However, I am new to OSR games as whole, so I am still figuring things out.
• The quick rule of thumb is have see online is that DCC levels equal roughly 2 OSR levels. If you have done conversions to or from DCC, have you found that to be accurate?
• Does a critical hit on an attack roll do anything extra in OSE?

 

[amethal]

• How compatible is OSE with OSRIC? While I have not (yet) played OSRIC, I did back the upcoming newer version. From a lot of what I have read online, both games share the same roots, so are said to be mostly compatible with minor adjustments. However, I am new to OSR games as whole, so I am still figuring things out.

The history of D&D editions is quite complicated. I don't really know where to start with this, because I'm not sure what you know already. Apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.

OSE is based on the original D&D game, more specifically the "Moldvay" Basic and Expert sets, usually referred to as the B/X version. That was a bit before my time - I started on the next version, the "Mentzer" Version which is referred to as the BECMI version.

OSRIC is based on the 1st Edition of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game. TSR supported both product lines at the same time - the Advanced game did not replace the original game, and both games continued to evolve independently.

As I think was fairly common at the time, I started with D&D (in my case, BECMI) then moved on to AD&D. AD&D was way more complicated, but it was usual to ignore rules you didn't like (I didn't know anybody who used the weapon vs armour modifiers, or the weapon speed rules) and also to not realise where AD&D had changed some rules - for instance, I'm pretty sure we carried on using D&D initiative as we hadn't noticed it was done a bit differently in AD&D.

It was also very common for each DM to have their own house rules, and for players to be a bit vague as to what were the actual rules of the game as opposed to the way the DM liked to run things. In our case we hardly ever used the monster reaction rolls - we were children, we wanted to fight monsters, not negotiate with them - which is not the way you were supposed to play the game.

So whilst there are differences between the two games you can easily mix and match the rules (deliberately, or accidentally) and there should be no problem running adventures written for one system using the other. However, it might be easier just to pick the system you prefer and stick with it. Otherwise you might get as confused as we did, back in the day.

 

[Simon Miles]

How compatible is OSE with OSRIC?

Completely, as far as we have experienced as long as you use OSE Advanced - we produce products for both systems (as per the logos on the front of our products) and the only tweak we have to make is on AC to allow for the AAC that OSE Advanced uses and the old fashioned AC used in OSRIC. There might be some other differences in the deep-down nitty-gritty but these have not affected our gaming or publications at all.
Lastest pub cover included for illustration - available for Pay what you want (for free if you like, we're good with

that!) on www.dunrominuniversitypress.co.uk

 

[Mannahnin]

The history of D&D editions is quite complicated. I don't really know where to start with this, because I'm not sure what you know already. Apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.

OSE is based on the original D&D game, more specifically the "Moldvay" Basic and Expert sets, usually referred to as the B/X version. That was a bit before my time - I started on the next version, the "Mentzer" Version which is referred to as the BECMI version.

OSRIC is based on the 1st Edition of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game. TSR supported both product lines at the same time - the Advanced game did not replace the original game, and both games continued to evolve independently.

As I think was fairly common at the time, I started with D&D (in my case, BECMI) then moved on to AD&D. AD&D was way more complicated, but it was usual to ignore rules you didn't like (I didn't know anybody who used the weapon vs armour modifiers, or the weapon speed rules) and also to not realise where AD&D had changed some rules - for instance, I'm pretty sure we carried on using D&D initiative as we hadn't noticed it was done a bit differently in AD&D.

It was also very common for each DM to have their own house rules, and for players to be a bit vague as to what were the actual rules of the game as opposed to the way the DM liked to run things. In our case we hardly ever used the monster reaction rolls - we were children, we wanted to fight monsters, not negotiate with them - which is not the way you were supposed to play the game.

So whilst there are differences between the two games you can easily mix and match the rules (deliberately, or accidentally) and there should be no problem running adventures written for one system using the other. However, it might be easier just to pick the system you prefer and stick with it. Otherwise you might get as confused as we did, back in the day.

Good post! Although slight clarification- both B/X D&D (released in 1981) and AD&D 1st Edition (released in 1977-1979) derive from Original D&D (released 1974). (Like you I started with 1983-1985 BECMI in 1985 and didn't learn this history until years later).

OD&D accumulated additional rules and supplements from 1975-1977 until it was nearly as complex as AD&D; AD&D was introduced both to clean up/consolidate all the supplements and clarifications from OD&D and expand on those to make it a "more complete" game suitable for tournaments, and as a business maneuver to claim to be a different game from D&D so TSR could just put Gary's name on it and not pay royalties to Dave Arneson on it.

1981 B/X is simplified (introducing Race as Class for example) in many ways, to serve the dual purposes of being a good introductory set for newbies since the game exploded into national popular culture in late 1979 following the James Dallas Egbert III disappearance, and to differentiate it from AD&D to help support TSR's legal argument that they should be allowed to cut Arneson off from royalties on AD&D and just pay them to him on D&D.

 

[Mannahnin]

But I do have questions:

• How compatible is OSE with OSRIC? While I have not (yet) played OSRIC, I did back the upcoming newer version. From a lot of what I have read online, both games share the same roots, so are said to be mostly compatible with minor adjustments. However, I am new to OSR games as whole, so I am still figuring things out.
• The quick rule of thumb is have see online is that DCC levels equal roughly 2 OSR levels. If you have done conversions to or from DCC, have you found that to be accurate?
• Does a critical hit on an attack roll do anything extra in OSE?

1. OSE is a restatement, reorganization and clarification of 1981 Basic/Expert D&D while OSRIC is a restatement, reorganization and clarification of 1977-1979 AD&D 1st edition. These are somewhat different games, with AD&D having separate race & class, more complex and stingy ability score charts, more generous hit points and spells, and lots of additional rules like psionics, grappling and two other forms of unarmed combat, more monsters, spells, magic items, classes, weapons, armor, additional rules for things like attack bonuses and penalties for different weapons vs armor types, and more complex initiative rules.

1a. That being said, because the core mechanics (concepts like armor class, HD to attack matrices, saving throws) are so similar between the games, the degree of compatibility remains high. To increase OSE's usability with classic AD&D and modern OSRIC adventures even more, OSE has an Advanced Adventures variant, which implements practically all the options from AD&D (separate race and class, additional classes, monsters, magic items, etc.) in OSE. So this means if you're running an old AD&D module with OSE Advanced, you don't have to worry about running into a monster, spell, class or magic item which wasn't present in B/X and needing to substitute or make up rules. OSE Advanced has you covered.

2. DCC to Old School D&D conversion. I have not done the conversion work, but have run and played quite a lot of old school D&D and read DCC closely. That conversion rate does seem to me like a good rule of thumb given the extra powers and abilities DCC characters have.

3. There are no critical hits in the OSE rules. There were none in either B/X D&D or in 1st edition AD&D; Gary Gygax famously thought they were a terrible idea and said so in the AD&D DMG. AD&D didn't introduce them as an optional rule until 2nd edition in 1989, four years after he left the company. That being said, they've always been a popular house rule, going back to the 70s, so modern tables do sometimes incorporate them.

 

[Argyle King]

The history of D&D editions is quite complicated. I don't really know where to start with this, because I'm not sure what you know already. Apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.

OSE is based on the original D&D game, more specifically the "Moldvay" Basic and Expert sets, usually referred to as the B/X version. That was a bit before my time - I started on the next version, the "Mentzer" Version which is referred to as the BECMI version.

OSRIC is based on the 1st Edition of the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game. TSR supported both product lines at the same time - the Advanced game did not replace the original game, and both games continued to evolve independently.

As I think was fairly common at the time, I started with D&D (in my case, BECMI) then moved on to AD&D. AD&D was way more complicated, but it was usual to ignore rules you didn't like (I didn't know anybody who used the weapon vs armour modifiers, or the weapon speed rules) and also to not realise where AD&D had changed some rules - for instance, I'm pretty sure we carried on using D&D initiative as we hadn't noticed it was done a bit differently in AD&D.

It was also very common for each DM to have their own house rules, and for players to be a bit vague as to what were the actual rules of the game as opposed to the way the DM liked to run things. In our case we hardly ever used the monster reaction rolls - we were children, we wanted to fight monsters, not negotiate with them - which is not the way you were supposed to play the game.

So whilst there are differences between the two games you can easily mix and match the rules (deliberately, or accidentally) and there should be no problem running adventures written for one system using the other. However, it might be easier just to pick the system you prefer and stick with it. Otherwise you might get as confused as we did, back in the day.

I know some of that from reading, but I appreciate the extra depth and experienced opinion that comes from conversation, so thank you. I did not fully understand the BX-BECMI divide.

My first time playing D&D was the beginning of D&D 3.5. (I had some 3.0 books but never actually got to use them before 3.5 came out). Later, I played both 4E and 5E. I've been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics for around a year. I do own a lot of older D&D material and have dabbled here and there, but mostly I picked up monster books and adventures to convert to other things.

Outside of D&D, I play a lot of GURPS. A big chunk of my early GURPS 4th Edition experience was as a player in a Greyhawk game for which the GM used GURPS. We played through a lot of the classic adventures. In particular, the A-series beginning with Slave Pits of the Undercity.

Edit: I backed the new edition of OSRIC earlier in the year. As I've started to play more games in the OSR family, I've been more open to trying things.

I have a lot of interest in running older adventures and monster books. Even though I started with "modern" D&D, I much prefer the mentality and general approach to the genre that I feel from interacting with pre-WotC D&D.

Eventually, I would like to try running Ghost Tower of Inverness in either DCC or one of the other OSR (maybe OSE) games.