Where Complexity Belongs

One thing i have found with Crossroads is that you can do ritual magic in a fight, if the other PCs actually have a genuine abilitg to protect the ritualist while they work, and the caster is actively using actions to do things that have variable outcome with stakes.
I was going to comment on my issue with rituals for PCs in games in the past - whenever anyone wanted to create a challenge around a ritual, the PC doing the ritual became effectively an NPC whose only focus was to complete the ritual. They were doing something but it wasn’t practically different from having their turn skipped. They couldn’t do something cool.

It sounds like you’ve come up with a solution or approach for this?
 

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I was going to comment on my issue with rituals for PCs in games in the past - whenever anyone wanted to create a challenge around a ritual, the PC doing the ritual became effectively an NPC whose only focus was to complete the ritual. They were doing something but it wasn’t practically different from having their turn skipped. They couldn’t do something cool.

It sounds like you’ve come up with a solution or approach for this?
One step in the ritual = 1 active meaningful action with risk of consequnces by the ritualist. Generally that means that they start the ritual in round one phase one, and take their action in phase 3 each round, but can do whatever with thier quick actions (2/round can be taken in any phase, basically combine minor actions and reactions) each round. Thier ritual action moves one step toward completion on a success (and usually has some effect in the moment like creating a shield of wind around them or weakening the enemy or interfering with some other effect in the area.
Failure means a lost action and a round added to the casting time, and the GM gets an Adversity Point to fuel their adverserial moves.
 

Where Complexity Belongs​

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Not disagreeing with the OP but this was the first thing that popped to my mind when reading the thread title.
 

This applies to dnd homebrewing as well.

So i have recently been working hard to simplify my game, Crossroads, and one thing that is very important to that process is deciding where the game should be complex.

For instance, PCs are fairly complex, but the general rules are quite simple.

But there are less general rules that i think might need to be complex, and i am curious what folks think of my reasoning.

Ritual Magic - To me, this is an area where super simple rules completely waste the potential fun of ritual magic. I want to have to combine components and build the ritual mechanically. Something like 3-6 steps, more for BIG MAGIC. I want ritual casting to be a scene or a major component of a scene, not just a quick button you push.

crafting - Similar to ritual magic, but to me crafting should require checks, and be almost like a puzzle to solve, at least when you are creating something of your own invention or modifying something.

Do you agree? If not, why?
I am an advocate for simplicity whenever possible. Unless there is some advantage gained through added complexity -(which can include feel/aesthetics/etc.) I think complexity should be minimized as long as it's not a detriment to other aspects of the game. I think the more complicated you make a sub-system the more likely it won't get used by the vast majority of players...especially if the rest of your game runs towards simpler in general.
 

I’m in the don’t care about crafting at all club, so complexity should not be there if you want to include it.

I love the idea of ritual casting being an adventure itself. This is a place I wouldn’t mind complexity.
 

One step in the ritual = 1 active meaningful action with risk of consequnces by the ritualist. Generally that means that they start the ritual in round one phase one, and take their action in phase 3 each round, but can do whatever with thier quick actions (2/round can be taken in any phase, basically combine minor actions and reactions) each round. Thier ritual action moves one step toward completion on a success (and usually has some effect in the moment like creating a shield of wind around them or weakening the enemy or interfering with some other effect in the area.
Failure means a lost action and a round added to the casting time, and the GM gets an Adversity Point to fuel their adverserial moves.
How long is combat meant to take? Because the "standard" at the moment is 2-3 turns. And then having to spent several turns to cast a ritual might be too much.


13th age, which already has some longer than average number of rounds, has several classes which can "concentrate" for 1 round. Which often leads to only a small effect that turn, but a really strong effect next turn. This kinda works, because its only 1 turn, in a 4 turn game.


Also for me a meaningfull action has not necessarily to do with the risk of consequences/failures, but with the fact if there is a meaningfull decision. So the ritual would for me need a decision as well.



Also something I fear is that if only 1 person does the rituals than that person can feel like an NPC (when the ritual feels like skipping actions), but also like harry potter, the only person which actually matters by catching the golden ball thingy.


One thing I could see is to have a "ritual" class, which does rituals and plays thus different in combat, similar to how 13th age has "charge" classes. People who like this gamestyle can choose it, but not someone in a party is forced to do it, because its quite a bit different. OR if you want to have this be a central point of combat, and make it a role, then you need to have either all classes be able to contribute (like in a skill challenge in combat), or have several different (playing and feeling) classes which can do rituals, to make the chances higher someone likes to play this role.


I am just not sure "rituals" per se need to have complexity to be exciting. Skill challenges in D&D 4E could be used in combat, and them being interesting depended a lot more on the narrative and the combat encounter design, than on how exactly you do the skill challenge rules. (There are simpler and more complex homebrews, and the basic version can be quite simple like a clock).


The rules to Monopoly are not that long, but players still ignore some rules.

It's more of an issue of "what are the players willing to use" than "which parts should be complex."
Well monopoly is a game made to be "not fun", so having people try to homebrew the bad game to make it fun does make sense. Also all old games which are mostly taught by oral from people to people have house rules in different circles.

And most games do fine with that, because they are robust, which many good games are.
I personaly like the complexity to be not there when you need to decide fast at the table and more in the "backend" - character creation and building etc.

Well I like decisions to be not simple, but I understand what you mean. The point which for crafting makes it more complex is that you need to use crafting for your items, but when you only have specific components etc. this makes the item parts even more complex, because you cant just choose the best items anymore, but must choose the best ones given the limitations, which as an optimization problem is harder.
 

Do you agree? If not, why?

Ritual magic and crafting both sound like good places for complexity.

If you want something to bame a scene though, that isn't about rules complexity alone. Interacting with rules does not itself create role playing action.

It becomes a scene when there are steps of interaction, even if they are simple.
 

Ritual magic and crafting both sound like good places for complexity.

If you want something to bame a scene though, that isn't about rules complexity alone. Interacting with rules does not itself create role playing action.

It becomes a scene when there are steps of interaction, even if they are simple.
I would argue that a series of steps of interaction is complex, but I get what you mean i think.

And in the sense you mean, i agree. Each step doesnt need to be complex. The process as a whole is where i want complexity.
 

I would argue that a series of steps of interaction is complex, but I get what you mean i think.

It can be. It can also be repetitive or a mindless grind, like trading basic attacks in a combat.

And in the sense you mean, i agree. Each step doesnt need to be complex. The process as a whole is where i want complexity.

Yep. Having a useful and dynamic decision space in each step would be good complexity.
 

How long is combat meant to take? Because the "standard" at the moment is 2-3 turns. And then having to spent several turns to cast a ritual might be too much.
Well it doesnt run like dnd, but its around 3-4 rounds depending on how big a fight it is. and yeah part of the current design is that a PC might spend a conflict scene just doing a complex task like casting a ritual spell or bypassing a security system or bringing down a magical barrier.

Usually these are things other PCs can help with, or that can be undertaken by multiple PCs with their full attention, but an "encounter building" conceit is that when these things come up there should often be hazards that force the team to split attention. Magic barriers and security systems may have defenders, or there might be secondary devices that have to be messed with simultaneously, or a demon might be much stronger until the ritual is done, etc.
13th age, which already has some longer than average number of rounds, has several classes which can "concentrate" for 1 round. Which often leads to only a small effect that turn, but a really strong effect next turn. This kinda works, because its only 1 turn, in a 4 turn game.
Crossroads is built so that every check matters, so the person "concentrating" is never just saying "oh i just do magic, ill take a normal action next round".
Also for me a meaningfull action has not necessarily to do with the risk of consequences/failures, but with the fact if there is a meaningfull decision. So the ritual would for me need a decision as well.
Eh both can create meaningful action. Doesnt have to always be both.
Also something I fear is that if only 1 person does the rituals than that person can feel like an NPC (when the ritual feels like skipping actions), but also like harry potter, the only person which actually matters by catching the golden ball thingy.


One thing I could see is to have a "ritual" class, which does rituals and plays thus different in combat, similar to how 13th age has "charge" classes. People who like this gamestyle can choose it, but not someone in a party is forced to do it, because its quite a bit different. OR if you want to have this be a central point of combat, and make it a role, then you need to have either all classes be able to contribute (like in a skill challenge in combat), or have several different (playing and feeling) classes which can do rituals, to make the chances higher someone likes to play this role.
In Crossroads at least, every character has the abilith to learn any skill, so while you can specialize in esoteric magic and thus be the ritual expert of your team, its like being the sniper. Other people can shoot a rifle too.
I am just not sure "rituals" per se need to have complexity to be exciting. Skill challenges in D&D 4E could be used in combat, and them being interesting depended a lot more on the narrative and the combat encounter design, than on how exactly you do the skill challenge rules. (There are simpler and more complex homebrews, and the basic version can be quite simple like a clock).
Clocks arent simple, though. Precision required, lots of moving parts moving in sync.
Same with Skill Challenges. The comparison is resolving the task with a single binary roll.
 

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