What is "railroading" to you (as a player)?

[Scott Christian]

I do think it completely fails to embrace the one and only thing that makes TTRPGs unique, which is the ability to wholly customize the experience for the people playing the game. Basically, in a railroad game you could swap out any player or PC for any other player or PC and not much about the main events would change.

Not to be nitpicky, but you could wholly customize each experience for a player and still meet your definition of a railroad.

 

[Maxperson]

I think almost stealing the tuning forks probably caused more afront than if you had simply stopped planar travel magic working because of a gods power. Theft is such a personal affront, almost guaranteed to get players backs up. It’s also something most people would want a chance to detect or avoid.

Stealing their stuff is something that is done to the player. Stopping planar travel is something done to the world. I don’t think it changes the railroading issue, but I see why it got on the players wick.

How I would have done it is have invisible Fey using illusion to make the caster's wand/piton/whatever look like the tuning fork and vice versa. The spell would fail and the item would feel similar to the tuning fork when grabbed. Fey trickery for the win.

 

[Scott Christian]

There were no blocked exit points. All that happened was that the tuning forks were stolen.

There was no sequence of events. There was only the one event of tuning forks being stolen.

Just so we are clear, I didn't call it a railroad. You left out the part of my quote where I said so specifically. I said that I have been around enough people on the forum to know that some will consider it a railroad, and their reason is just as legit as me saying it's not a railroad. The players are in the Feywild. Poof. All the portals are gone. Poof. Find a way out.

There is no connection to the story they were playing. Per the OP's discussion, he did not hint, foreshadow weave any ties to the Feywild or the Winter Court. He did not thread any of it into the campaign they were playing. It just happened. To some who have had this argument before, I know they call that railroading.

The other piece that gets highly overlooked is why "railroading?" (Which everyone has a different definition of, and some even have different definitions as a player versus when they DM) Let me pose a question:

How is having a one solution to a problem (with maybe many paths to get there or only one path) any different than the DM not knowing what the solution is? Because the latter invariably leads to whether the DM "feels" they have accomplished their goal. The latter could just as easily have only one solution, but because the DM didn't write it down, now there is some different definition applied to them?

The entire discussion is so full of pretense and loose definitions, that it may as well be as imaginary as being trapped in the Feywild.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Not to be nitpicky, but you could wholly customize each experience for a player and still meet your definition of a railroad.

Possibly, but a game that features prepared plotlines and such guarantees that outcome, as actions PCs take will not alter the sequence of events that MUST happen according to what the GM has prepared. No matter what you do in BG3 you MUST go to Baldur's Gate and confront the Brain Monster. In a TTRPG version of BG3, if the GM is willing, the PCs might actually have the option of going to Waterdeep or Thay and not confronting the Brain Monster.

 

[Scott Christian]

No. Having no rails does not equal a railroad. Having no set solution such that any reasonable solution the players come up with will work is the opposite of railroad. Having a set, written down method that must be used and no other will work to get off the plane, is a railroad.

Who decides reasonable here Max? You mean all DMs are reasonable. Ok. That actually goes along with my experience, but I know it doesn't match yours. So the DM that says, "Well, I was just waiting for you to do something reasonable, like ring the fairy bell five times, eat the kale salad, and enter the walnut tossing competition to break the Winter Court's hold" is reasonable?

You see, that is where every definition and every argument falls apart. I have had this discussion before. Some say having five ways out of the Feywild, and ten other side areas to explore is still a railroad - because it doesn't allow player agency. Others say curating a single session beforehand is railroading - even if they know the players are going to spot X. Some, like you, are a little more middle, saying it is when the DM says there is one solution, yet only if that solution is written down are they railroading. And then others like me say railroading isn't really a thing unless the DM never listens to the players. (Which I have yet to find one that was actually looking for a group to play with.)

All of it is so vague and interpretive. Do you think Janelle Monáe or Thom York is a better interpretive dancer? That is about how abstract this discussion is.

 

[Maxperson]

The GM literally are god in many RPGs. If something happens to a player character its on the GM. If a GM can randomly steal players spell components, they can also randomly steal enemies weapons.

Why even play the game if the DM is just going to save you from everything bad you cause to yourself through poor decision making? If there's no risk, just write down level 20 on your sheet, make the character and then go do something else. It would be more fun than playing a loooooooong, booooooooring game with no risks in it.

Just because the DM can save the PC, doesn't mean he should save the PC, or that it would even be a good thing to do.

 

[Maxperson]

Hah, no. The existence of good RPG advice isn't something I need to demonstrate, it's a casually, and trivially obvious fact.

Whether DM force is good, bad or both, and to what degree, is neither trivially obvious, nor fact. We all have preference dials for how much DM force is good, bad, or okay, making it a subjective preference. If you're going to assert that low/no DM force is the best way to do things, you'll need to back it up by more than, "Look on advice boards, lots of DMs give advice saying low is best." Those, too, are just opinions and not fact.

 

[Maxperson]

Sounds like we can mark this thread resolved!

400 pages later

I mean he said that just a few pages into the thread and it hasn't slowed it down so far. I doubt you saying this now is going to stop it.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah but thats a good sign its most likely bad.

Gamedesign evolved, and learned from the errors of the past. If one does still the same thing as 40 years ago, than it can with verry good chance be done better.

As was shown in the modern game design thread a few weeks back, most or all of modern game design elements originated 30-40 years ago in old RPGs.

 

[Scott Christian]

and I certainly do not agree with (or even understand) the idea that me not having a required solution is somehow also railroading.

So all the other spells would work to get them out of the Feywild? Here is what you wrote:

They have locked down the plane, closing gates and using magic to steal plane shift tuning forks from those arriving.

In any reading I can do, that sounds like other spells that might work wouldn't. I don't know, maybe after the walls of text you read, you changed your tune (pun intended). But it is clear that they were trapped. Yes, they had a wish spell. Two apparently! But to waste a wish, which could have happened, would have burned terribly as a player. I mean, "locked down the plane," "closing gates," and stealing desired things needed to teleport - that sounds pretty conclusive to me. A group that can lock down an entire plane can surely thwart one wish spell.

But that leads me back to what you posted "not having a required solution." I will try to explain it again:

Not having solutions in place, and not having pathways to those solutions, means one thing, and one thing only: The players have to appease your whim. And make no mistake, it is a whim. We are not computers. Our decision making is based on emotion, experience, and a bit of brains. So if you, as a DM, have no idea how they get out, all that means is they try things until it appeases you. That, to many, is no different than the DM that writes down one solution and one path to the solution - because its success is entirely based on your thoughts in that moment.

As I said before, I don't think what you did is railroading. But I understand why some do. Your wording of the scenario and the situation described above are railroading to some.