D&D 5E (2024) D&D Classes without Subclasses?

maybe best way for a touch of BM via feat,

IE: homebrew
Battle master initiate:
+1 str or dex,
learn 2 maneuvers
gain 2 superiority dice, they are d6. regain them after short rest.

you can gain this feat multiple time.

Yeah, that’s a decent way to do it. Though if you keep walking down the path of featification you end up with:

Class that can take any class feature as feats.


… which, wow. That’s a fair bit of effort. I think this is overall a good direction, though I think making everything into a "feat" may end up hampering balance. A point-based system, where each ability costs differing amounts of points, might get closer to ideal balance, at the cost of complexity though, of course…

And it should be called out that the core rules are not necessarily that well balanced to begin with. Achieving roughly equivalent balance would be a good bar to reach for. In theory, it’s possible for this alternative system to be even better balanced than the core rules, though that would require quite a lot of effort.
 
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I ran a game where everyone got 2 subclasses. It was... hilariously fun. I absolutely recommend trying it out at least once. It does raise the power level of the PCs, but that's easily accounted for on your side of the screen.

Anyone who picked Paladin only had to deal with a single set of tenets, to keep things simple.
Wow that is cool. Sounds like a watered down version of the 3.5 gestalt rules. Those were really fun, though they made character builds quite complicated, and forget about balance 😅
 

One by one:

Artificers: you move all the subclass stuff to infusions. Works well enough for most but the armor infusion is either OP or level-locked to 10th or higher

Barbarian: you're all totem barbarians now, but with more totem options.

Bard: need more feats to cover the gaps

Cleric: this one's tough - you can have the individual god covered by things like spell selection but you need to either massively expand the spell list or grant ways to get non-cleric spells for theme. Also many more channel divinity options.

Druid: change wildshape to "channel nature" and allow it to summon spirits in addition to being used for wildshape

Fighter: this is either easy (make everyone a battlemaster and create maneuvers to fill all the gaps) or very, very hard (if you don't make everyone a battlemaster)

Monk: a little tougher - you need to add a Special Moves feature for customization

Paladin: honestly which oath barely matters mechanically already

Ranger: this class already severely lacks customization points, but having lots of "knacks" to choose from and gaining more as you level can help

Rogue: definitely need "skill feats" for this one.

Sorcerer: Yeah I don't think you can do this without subclasses.

Warlock: only if you restrict the class to spooky casters. Celestial warlocks are out.

Wizard: oh right they have subclasses. I rarely notice during actual play.

The recurring theme is you need to give each class a new customization point - if you want a genuinely different structure I suggest creating "class feats" for each class. I wouldn't have them all on the same progression a la PF2 but vary depending on what the class needs. With finesse you can replace subclasses form most classes, mostly.
Rogue:
 

I'm partially talking out of my butt, but having read a lot about the Paizo games in the past few months, but not having GM'd yet - isn't this kinda how Paizo does things? You just have a list of a bunch of feats per class and you grab whatever? I think the biggest problem (from what I've heard ppl complaining about) is that things then get so wild that people have paralysis of choice. And you have to start using things like Pathbuilder to help you create a character. I think it's also why they ahve things like Archetypes that seem to allow for what you guys are looking for.
It's not totally dissimilar, and blaot is an issue.

With PF2e, it's worth noting that 1) you still get subclasses they're just weaker 2) you also get ancestry feats, skill feats, and general feats on top of class feats and spells, so you're making multiple choices at each level - and to keep the game balanced that also eans a lot fo these choices aren't individually hugely impactful.
Assuming I'm not 100% wrong - it implies that it could be done, but would require a new version of D&D in order to make sure things work/are balanced correctly in terms of choices.
I think you could make it work by only replacing the classes, so it's only a 50% overhaul :P
 

I’m imagining a classless system which is based on points and skill trees.

Each class can be broken down into 2 or 3 skill trees, and one more tree per subclass.

Each level you gain 10 or 12 points (skill points, or ability points, or learning points, something like that, not sure what the best terminology is).

And then you can go to town investing these points into any ability from any tree you meet the prerequisites for. You should be able to replicate a regular class + subclass exactly if you spend the points in a certain way.

For example, maybe there is a "Martial Tree" which contains weapon masteries at the bottom, and Extra Attack higher up, with the prereq of having some weapon masteries and +3 proficiency bonus. This is a tree which many of the regular classes tap into.

There can be an alternative tree which has Martial Arts at the bottom and also provides Extra Attack higher up.

The fighter might have a Second Wind tree and a Action Surge tree, with abilities higher up which give more uses per day or extra effects or alternative effects when triggering SW or AS (just like the regular fighter abilities).

And then some trees could get "tangled" at higher levels. For example, maybe the fighter’s Second Extra Attack feature has prereqs including: Extra Attack from the Martial tree, Action Surge from the AS tree, and char level 11. And that explains why only the fighter gets this, since they’re the only ones to get Action Surge.

Likewise, the EK’s Arcane Charge can have both Action Surge and some level of magic ability as prereqs, representing another "tanged ability" which requires multiple trees.

It would be hard to balance, but could be very interesting…
 

Balance would be the issue, but hey, it's not like D&D 5E subclasses are all that well-balanced anyway.

Take it to an extreme, and you end up with a point-buy system where features have point costs, prerequisites, and probably mutual-exclusions. I have vague memories of GURPS being somewhere in that space, but to be fair I haven't gone anywhere near that system for many years so my recollection could be wildly wrong.

PF2e uses a mix. It has classes, subclasses, class archetypes, non-class archetypes, and feats. For a number of the classes there's a level-1 choice which is the equivalent of a D&D 5E subclass. Rogues have "Rackets", Gunslingers choose "Ways", et cetera. These provide a package of changes to the base class, including some that unlock at later levels. Not all PF2e classes have subclasses (fighters don't, for instance) but it's common.

There are "class archetypes" that replace the subclasses, where you make a choice at level 1 and are also required to take the relevant class archetype dedication at level 2. These tend to change the base class in more drastic ways. Examples include "Spellshot" dedication for Gunslinger or the "Flexible Spellcaster" dedication that applies to multiple caster classes.

There are other archetypes that exist as feat trees that one can enter into instead of taking 'ordinary' class feats. There's a "Wrestler" archetype that can be of interest for martials particularly interested in grappling, for instance. Taking an archetype dedication feat means that you aren't taking a different class feat instead, and you can't really spam dedication feats because you need to take two more feats from that archetype before you can pick up another dedication feat.

And then there's piles of class feats, which have prerequisites regarding class, level, previous feats and what-not. There's also feats associated with ancestries, and general feats, and a subset of general feats that are tied to specific skills. The end result is that pretty much every time you level up, you're choosing a class feat or a general feat (that might be a skill feat) or a skill feat, which means a lot of customization possibilities (in addition to that granted by the somewhat more granular skill system (untrained/trained/expert/master/legendary rather than untrained/proficient/expert, say).

Multiclassing is also handled through archetypes, which provide access to a restricted set of class features plus access to other features with feat trees (again, taking a feat from a multiclass archetype is in lieu of alternatives such as taking a feat from your own class, or from any other archetype you may have).

That does mean that there's potentially a lot of choice (which you can explore for free if, say, you poke at creating characters using the popular Pathbuilder 2E tool; even if you restrict things to the core books only, there's a lot of options). In general they've tried to be reasonable about things so that if you make logically appropriate choices you won't be severely underpowered or overpowered -- there's not really guarantees on effectiveness if, say, you insist on investing your feats into archetypes like Dandy and Celebrity for a pure dungeon crawl, but the system is meant so that you can viably build into a lot of different styles, and with rules for retraining during downtime in case somebody does end up regretting a feat choice. Whereas, say, if I were running D&D 5E w/ the 2014 rules and there were a completely new player who didn't read up on build guides, I might have to warn him about how for instance spears and halberds have significantly better feat support (in terms of game mechanics) than the "traditional" sword-and-board fighter; or how in many cases, hand crossbows can just out-DPS other bows c/o XBE + SS. Feat trees need to be carefully thought-out if you don't want there to be "trap options".
 

Another option might be for you to pick a single subclass for each class and just say "All Fighters are Champions, all Barbarians are Berserkers" etc. This would save you a lot of work and your players a lot of analysis paralysis but still simplify the game a bit.
 

4E found a solution around this flavor problem:

Intraclass Feats, a sort of inside out Multiclass system. You could give up a bit of a subclass resource to access a bit of a differen't subclass's resource within your own class. So for example, a Protector (the 4E Player's Option: Heroes of the Feywild Druid variant that is the predecessor to 5E's Circle of the Shepherd) could take a feat to trade a use of Summon Nature's Ally for a use of the '08-Druid's Wildshape). There's a similar feature for the 4E Player's Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms Druid variant, the Sentinel (a Beastmaster Druid harkening to 3E's Animal Companion) that they can give up to get a use of Summon Nature's Ally or Wildshape – it's a resource feature that props up their animal companion's abilities. This all still cost a feat and cost a small amount of your primary subclass' resource feature, but it was a small price to pay to answer this flavorful question elegantly!

Of course, 4E's feats were MUCH smaller in scope than 5E's feats, which are essentially non-classed class-features, so a 5E version of these feats would probably want to ixnay on the downsides; the opportunity cost of taking this feat over a different feat or over an ASI is cost enough already! But it does highlight the solution for 5E, some of which 5E has ALREADY implemented.

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
has the Superior Technique option that Fighters can take instead of a Fighting Style Feat –– this grants them a Battle Master SD and Maneuver. So either it's a useful option for Battle Masters to bolster their usages and versatility, or else it's a way for other Fighters to access the subclass features. 2014 Player's Handbook also had the Martial Adept feat that grants ANYONE access to a small amount of the same battle Master resources. Superior Technique is actually a bit smaller than Martial Adept because the 2014 thinking was that Fighting Styles are worth half a feat, but this was reassessed in 2024, and now they're considered close enough that a Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger may forgo a normal feat to access another Fighting Style. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything also granted the Fighting Initiate feat that grants takers access to any Fighting Style from the Fighter class (I'd house rule this to be any generic Fighting Style Feat, thus locking off Superior Technique, Druidic Warrior, and Blessed Warrior given that the latter two were kept out of the feat category as alternatives to gettting a Fighting Style feat). I'd note that Martial Adept is officially considered a Legacy option and while Tasha's generic Fighting Styles (and Unarmed Fighting) were ported over to be Fighting Style Feats, the Fighting Initiate feat was not – likely because the Weapon Mastery feat already offers some of the conceptual space of Martial Power to characters that aren't classed as Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue.

But in any case, these are just some options that offer non-Battle Masters some intraclass features from the BM subclass. Likewise, Magic Adept (Arcane) gives some Eldritch Knight flavor to non-Eldritch Knights (and bolsters EK's options a lttile), and there are a few other feats you can take to lean into that multi-subclass kit idea. There's also the Telekinetic feat, which gives a taste of the Psi Warrior to other characters (or can bolster th Psi Warrior's options).

Warlock is another example where a bunch of its Invocations could thematically reflect other patrons. For example, Grasp of Hadar from Xanathar's Guide to Everything is very conceptually tied to the Great Old One Otherworldly Patron (given that this is the Patron that ate 4E's Star Pact builds for 08'Lock, Hexblade, and Binder), but is available to any Warlock. Unearthed Arcana experimented with Invocations with specific subclass prereqs, but XGE, TCE, and BOTH versions of the Player's Handbook keep the Invocations Patron-prereq free, tying the prereqs instead specficially to level and/or Pact Boon (which 2024 PHB made into their own series of Invocations for those who want a bit more versatility across the Pact Boon options – another example of this creative philosophy at play).

I'd note another similar change from 2014 PHB to 2024 PHB is letting Paladins and Rangers access any of the generic Fighting Styles that Fighter could always access; even when they expanded the styles in TCE they still tied the expansions somewhat arbitrarily to either Paladin & Fighter or Ranger & Fighter (with Fighter getting 2 further exclusives and Paladin & Ranger each getting their exclusive option per above).

It just was becoming increasingly hard for WotC to justify locking Archery, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Thrown-Weapon Fighting from Paladins and to lock Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, and Interception from Rangers. I think 2014 was just too caught up with the idea that Rangers -ARE- the Bow or 2WF class as they were in 2008's PHB (despite the fact that even in 4E, Fighters and Barbarians, amongst others, had gotten build expansions to let them do those concepts as well). Similarly, the idea of a Great Weapon Ranger made them ask why isn't this a Barbarian? These fighting styles binding weapon choice were carried over assumptions of past editions, especially out of a desire to protect the Ranger's "niche." I would note that in the name of preserving the Ranger's ranged-attack Gishy niche, I think they didn't go far enough with Paladin's access to Archery & Thrown Weapon Fighting, because Smites still require Melee attacks, but at least now the build exists as an option (trap or otherwise).

I can see how they'd think that it doesn't make AS much sense for Fighters & Paladins to get access to Druid cantrips or Fighters & Rangers to get access to Cleric cantrips, so I understand keeping those two options as class-specific choices to help enhance the narrative ties between Paladin and Cleric, and between Ranger and Druid, specifically. Though personally I think if an Oath of the Ancients Paladin wants to take Druidic cantrips instead to help lean into that flavor early, why would I lock it behind the Ranger? And likewise for a Monster Slayer Ranger (taking a bit of Cleric cantrips to give that Van Hellsing vibe)?

In a perfect world I would have made "Arcane Warrior" and "Psionic Warrior" Fighting Styles and taken the cantrips out of the Eldritch Knight subclass. But I also understand the idea of wanting that to be part of the EK so that they can take a separate Fighting Style. I just would have suggested that Magic Initiate (Arcane) would be their 1st level Eldritch Knight flavor, then an Arcane Warrior fighting style would be their 2nd level flavor, and then the actual subclass would take it from there. I also think Arcane Warrior idea would be applicable to Arcane Archers as well as to Oath of the Watchers, Oath of the Noble Genies, & Oath of the Spellguard Paladins (and for Rangers such as Drake Warden, Horizon Walker, Gloom Stalker, and Fey Wanderer). I think this is probably my biggests ask of 5E's next errata / rules expansion / 10-yr iterative ruleset, honestly.

If we turn our attention to Bards, there are ways to lean into the other Colleges' narratives using feat choice as well. And over at Clerics, there are definitely feats as well as direct spell choices that can help prop up the idea of a Cleric with multiple Domains (though I honestly think we need a "Pantheon Domain" for the Cleric to give that generalist option like we get from the "Scribe Tradition" for the Wizard). The Scribe is this option for Wizards too, though I'd note that every Wizard can take advantage of the spells from the other domains, they're just not quite at good at doing so.

Spellcasters in general are a bit easier to borrow intraclasswise, unless the subclass is offering spells prepped expansions well beyond the normal flavor of the class. But we can take the Fighting Style and Combat Superiority feats & options above as a guide for this sort of kit-bashing to give us the dials and levers needed for any particular class's subclass list. The trick is making sure doing so doesn't crack open the class to EVERYONE else without a significant Multiclass level dip (hence why Subclasses are 3-level deep across the board in 2024).
 

4E found a solution around this flavor problem:

Intraclass Feats, a sort of inside out Multiclass system. You could give up a bit of a subclass resource to access a bit of a differen't subclass's resource within your own class. So for example, a Protector (the 4E Player's Option: Heroes of the Feywild Druid variant that is the predecessor to 5E's Circle of the Shepherd) could take a feat to trade a use of Summon Nature's Ally for a use of the '08-Druid's Wildshape). There's a similar feature for the 4E Player's Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms Druid variant, the Sentinel (a Beastmaster Druid harkening to 3E's Animal Companion) that they can give up to get a use of Summon Nature's Ally or Wildshape – it's a resource feature that props up their animal companion's abilities. This all still cost a feat and cost a small amount of your primary subclass' resource feature, but it was a small price to pay to answer this flavorful question elegantly!

Of course, 4E's feats were MUCH smaller in scope than 5E's feats, which are essentially non-classed class-features, so a 5E version of these feats would probably want to ixnay on the downsides; the opportunity cost of taking this feat over a different feat or over an ASI is cost enough already! But it does highlight the solution for 5E, some of which 5E has ALREADY implemented.

Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
has the Superior Technique option that Fighters can take instead of a Fighting Style Feat –– this grants them a Battle Master SD and Maneuver. So either it's a useful option for Battle Masters to bolster their usages and versatility, or else it's a way for other Fighters to access the subclass features. 2014 Player's Handbook also had the Martial Adept feat that grants ANYONE access to a small amount of the same battle Master resources. Superior Technique is actually a bit smaller than Martial Adept because the 2014 thinking was that Fighting Styles are worth half a feat, but this was reassessed in 2024, and now they're considered close enough that a Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger may forgo a normal feat to access another Fighting Style. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything also granted the Fighting Initiate feat that grants takers access to any Fighting Style from the Fighter class (I'd house rule this to be any generic Fighting Style Feat, thus locking off Superior Technique, Druidic Warrior, and Blessed Warrior given that the latter two were kept out of the feat category as alternatives to gettting a Fighting Style feat). I'd note that Martial Adept is officially considered a Legacy option and while Tasha's generic Fighting Styles (and Unarmed Fighting) were ported over to be Fighting Style Feats, the Fighting Initiate feat was not – likely because the Weapon Mastery feat already offers some of the conceptual space of Martial Power to characters that aren't classed as Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue.

But in any case, these are just some options that offer non-Battle Masters some intraclass features from the BM subclass. Likewise, Magic Adept (Arcane) gives some Eldritch Knight flavor to non-Eldritch Knights (and bolsters EK's options a lttile), and there are a few other feats you can take to lean into that multi-subclass kit idea. There's also the Telekinetic feat, which gives a taste of the Psi Warrior to other characters (or can bolster th Psi Warrior's options).

Warlock is another example where a bunch of its Invocations could thematically reflect other patrons. For example, Grasp of Hadar from Xanathar's Guide to Everything is very conceptually tied to the Great Old One Otherworldly Patron (given that this is the Patron that ate 4E's Star Pact builds for 08'Lock, Hexblade, and Binder), but is available to any Warlock. Unearthed Arcana experimented with Invocations with specific subclass prereqs, but XGE, TCE, and BOTH versions of the Player's Handbook keep the Invocations Patron-prereq free, tying the prereqs instead specficially to level and/or Pact Boon (which 2024 PHB made into their own series of Invocations for those who want a bit more versatility across the Pact Boon options – another example of this creative philosophy at play).

I'd note another similar change from 2014 PHB to 2024 PHB is letting Paladins and Rangers access any of the generic Fighting Styles that Fighter could always access; even when they expanded the styles in TCE they still tied the expansions somewhat arbitrarily to either Paladin & Fighter or Ranger & Fighter (with Fighter getting 2 further exclusives and Paladin & Ranger each getting their exclusive option per above).

It just was becoming increasingly hard for WotC to justify locking Archery, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Thrown-Weapon Fighting from Paladins and to lock Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, and Interception from Rangers. I think 2014 was just too caught up with the idea that Rangers -ARE- the Bow or 2WF class as they were in 2008's PHB (despite the fact that even in 4E, Fighters and Barbarians, amongst others, had gotten build expansions to let them do those concepts as well). Similarly, the idea of a Great Weapon Ranger made them ask why isn't this a Barbarian? These fighting styles binding weapon choice were carried over assumptions of past editions, especially out of a desire to protect the Ranger's "niche." I would note that in the name of preserving the Ranger's ranged-attack Gishy niche, I think they didn't go far enough with Paladin's access to Archery & Thrown Weapon Fighting, because Smites still require Melee attacks, but at least now the build exists as an option (trap or otherwise).

I can see how they'd think that it doesn't make AS much sense for Fighters & Paladins to get access to Druid cantrips or Fighters & Rangers to get access to Cleric cantrips, so I understand keeping those two options as class-specific choices to help enhance the narrative ties between Paladin and Cleric, and between Ranger and Druid, specifically. Though personally I think if an Oath of the Ancients Paladin wants to take Druidic cantrips instead to help lean into that flavor early, why would I lock it behind the Ranger? And likewise for a Monster Slayer Ranger (taking a bit of Cleric cantrips to give that Van Hellsing vibe)?

In a perfect world I would have made "Arcane Warrior" and "Psionic Warrior" Fighting Styles and taken the cantrips out of the Eldritch Knight subclass. But I also understand the idea of wanting that to be part of the EK so that they can take a separate Fighting Style. I just would have suggested that Magic Initiate (Arcane) would be their 1st level Eldritch Knight flavor, then an Arcane Warrior fighting style would be their 2nd level flavor, and then the actual subclass would take it from there. I also think Arcane Warrior idea would be applicable to Arcane Archers as well as to Oath of the Watchers, Oath of the Noble Genies, & Oath of the Spellguard Paladins (and for Rangers such as Drake Warden, Horizon Walker, Gloom Stalker, and Fey Wanderer). I think this is probably my biggests ask of 5E's next errata / rules expansion / 10-yr iterative ruleset, honestly.

If we turn our attention to Bards, there are ways to lean into the other Colleges' narratives using feat choice as well. And over at Clerics, there are definitely feats as well as direct spell choices that can help prop up the idea of a Cleric with multiple Domains (though I honestly think we need a "Pantheon Domain" for the Cleric to give that generalist option like we get from the "Scribe Tradition" for the Wizard). The Scribe is this option for Wizards too, though I'd note that every Wizard can take advantage of the spells from the other domains, they're just not quite at good at doing so.

Spellcasters in general are a bit easier to borrow intraclasswise, unless the subclass is offering spells prepped expansions well beyond the normal flavor of the class. But we can take the Fighting Style and Combat Superiority feats & options above as a guide for this sort of kit-bashing to give us the dials and levers needed for any particular class's subclass list. The trick is making sure doing so doesn't crack open the class to EVERYONE else without a significant Multiclass level dip (hence why Subclasses are 3-level deep across the board in 2024).
Wow, thanks for the thoughtful post. I learned a lot about 4e, which I’ve played briefly but not enough to know all the details you pointed out. Your comparison of 2014 to 2024 also taught me several things I hadn’t noticed yet. Cool stuff! Thanks for sharing.
 

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